Episode 8: "Common Threads" Options

[Fordmanrod]

Kristl, I'm very curious what specific definition of The Mediterranean Basin you're using. I need to know exactly how you exclude Tuscany from that region.

Like those researchers writing about the Mediterranean Diet, I'm using the term geographically. To mean, The Mediterrean Basin. How are you using that term? Sounds as if you're giving it The Bertolli.

Did you link to that Wikipedia definition of The Mediterranean Basin without even reading it? It absolutely and clearly and unequivocally includes Tuscany. Includes the entire Italian peninsula, from the Alps on down...

Simon.... just wanted to let you know I personally apprecieate your wealth of food and regional knowledge; I have learned much from you. I really enjoy your posts and hope someday to be able to identify the dishes you speak of. Thank you for your contributions........

[SivartAlappes]

Oh, same here!! Add a pair of glasses and I am done for!

Well, I'm a dork with glasses who looks freakishly similar to Kevin Smith... AND I want to be a cheftestant!

[ITSJUSTMEAOD]

I love the movie. It was filmed at the Grand Hotel on Mackinaw Island.

HAUNTINGLY MEMORABLE EH RAD

ESP WITH USE OF SUCH A SMALL CAST

So sorry if you don't get Fine Living...I'm kinda ticked off that I don't get the Mojo channel. After hanging around hulu.com I find they have lots of good programs I can't get. Sigh!!

HAVE A CONSOLATION THOUGH

DO HAVE SEVERAL EPS ON TAPE

SOME ARE FROM JAPAN BROADCASTS

THAT WERE NEVER AIRED ON FOODNET

ONES WHERE THE CHEFS GARNISH THIER FOOD

WITH EDIBLE GOLD

AWESOME STUFF

TAKE CARE OVER THERE

ALOHA

HAVE FUN

[Kristlkrost]

Simon.... just wanted to let you know I personally apprecieate your wealth of food and regional knowledge; I have learned much from you. I really enjoy your posts and hope someday to be able to identify the dishes you speak of. Thank you for your contributions........

Aw Ford....That was sterling and I agree.
Simon is a rock star and a big fat KIA
(know it all) and right........most of the time

[Kristlkrost]

Well, I'm a dork with glasses who looks freakishly similar to Kevin Smith... AND I want to be a cheftestant!

Awww....... But you are 24.

I must ruuuuuuuuun

I wish you so much luck youngin'.
Your passion is lovely.

[SimonBao]

Tuscany is not part of the basin where the researchers did those studies.....With any research a guideline must be set
as to where that research will be done.
I am assuming said researchers know what the basin is
that they want to study??
And where that kind of food is eaten and cooked that they consider Med.
So if you do research on a basin...that you deem the basin
to be as a researcher and basin research expert ;

(I dunno MoHob what to do there.. help.. full stop or yellow light )

Do you just throw Tuscany in the parameters of said study...'cause say..you don't want to be wrong on a TV board???

Kristl, you didn't read that article on The Med Diet very carefully. You seem to believe the whole thing is based on a single study conducted many years ago. Which you then use, by extension, to argue that Tuscany somehow isn't part of the Med Basin. Well, but that's wrong.

The article specifies how interest in The Med Diet was triggered by one study. Since then, The Med Diet has been one of the most extensively studied, researched, debated things in nutrition. Lots of studies, carried out by Europeans and North Americans and Australians. Among different national and ethnic groups in the Med Basin, etc. LOTS of research on different aspects of ingredients, on what's not in the diet, on lifestyle and activity, etc. Enough new research to sustain endless debate about what the results really show, what's coincidental and what's causal, what can really be inferred...

New findings get published all the time, "The Med Diet" is a staple of "Gourmet" type magazine, the racks at Borders have lots of "Med Diet" cookbooks... Kind of relentless. And the scientists are the only ones who emphasize that no, we don't really know that following the diet will do anything for anyone. One might be better off eating bacon every day but biking to work. And having your Bacon Botty served on whole grain toast....

[teleburst]

I don't recall Colicchio ever wanting to eliminate anyone over the mis-labeling of a dish or meal, but I think it's likely someone at that table also complained about the name of the dish - Red Curry. "Red curry," in a culinary context, doesn't mean "Oh look, it's a curry... and it's red." Along with a Yellow Curry and a Green Curry (which Dale made the episode previous), Red Curry is one of 3 basic curry types found in Thailand and SE Asia. The 3 types have very different flavor profiles and lists of basic ingredients. Mark's "Red Curry" doesn't even approximate a Red Curry; if I am at Judges Table, Mark will be scolded for some egregious misnaming. If I found out he misappropriated the name without knowing anything about "Red Curry" means, it might also be PYKAG.

Well, there was the great coqgate, but Tom claims that it didn't cost Casey the win (and it certainly didn't get her eliminated).

As to the red curry thing, red curry isn't even really red. It's orange. It's the chili paste that it's made from that's red <chuckle>. That's another distinguishing difference between Mark's "red curry" and the "normal" red curry - he just added some spices (a bare minimum), whereas SE Asia red curries are made from a paste. He would have done far better to do what most Americans do when they make a curry - use a commercial curry powder. That's the flavor most "average Americans" expect to see when they get "curried rice" or "curried chicken" anyway.

Speaking of coqgate, it just occured to me that one of the servers at work raises a few chickens. Hmmmmm, maybe I can buy an old bird from him and make a real coq au vin. I would be interested to see what the connective tissue/collagen-rich sauce is all about. I'm guessing that it's the difference between a fresh homemade 2 day demi-glace and a packaged commercial one. Or the difference between a home made chicken broth reduced once and a commercial chicken stock. Or even the difference between veal stock and demi-glace. It probably has a glossiness and silky mouthfeel that a hen-based sauce wouldn't have.

[Kristlkrost]

Kristl, you didn't read that article on The Med Diet very carefully. You seem to believe the whole thing is based on a single study conducted many years ago. Which you then use, by extension, to argue that Tuscany somehow isn't part of the Med Basin. Well, but that's wrong.

The article specifies how interest in The Med Diet was triggered by one study. Since then, The Med Diet has been one of the most extensively studied, researched, debated things in nutrition. Lots of studies, carried out by Europeans and North Americans and Australians. Among different national and ethnic groups in the Med Basin, etc. LOTS of research on different aspects of ingredients, on what's not in the diet, on lifestyle and activity, etc. Enough new research to sustain endless debate about what the results really show, what's coincidental and what's causal, what can really be inferred...

New findings get published all the time, "The Med Diet" is a staple of "Gourmet" type magazine, the racks at Borders have lots of "Med Diet" cookbooks... Kind of relentless. And the scientists are the only ones who emphasize that no, we don't really know that following the diet will do anything for anyone. One might be better off eating bacon every day but biking to work. And having your Bacon Botty served on whole grain toast....

OK I will find out exactly what criteria a
med diet consists of as per them.
Not the Med diet one would follow like Weight
Watcher's.
What Med food is to them...or to most of the world.

Because it is very specific and I know for sure that Tuscany cooking is not considered that and does not meet that criteria..Just like Cajun is not low country.

If I am wrong you may have my second born child.
Seeing as I only have one...I'll find someone.
My 94 year old neighbor needs an adoptive
family.

I am thinking we may both be right in a sense.

I shall cease and desist till futher study.

[SimonBao]

Speaking of coqgate, it just occured to me that one of the servers at work raises a few chickens. Hmmmmm, maybe I can buy an old bird from him and make a real coq au vin. I would be interested to see what the connective tissue/collagen-rich sauce is all about. I'm guessing that it's the difference between a fresh homemade 2 day demi-glace and a packaged commercial one. Or the difference between a home made chicken broth reduced once and a commercial chicken stock. Or even the difference between veal stock and demi-glace. It probably has a glossiness and silky mouthfeel that a hen-based sauce wouldn't have.

Tele, your coworker might not want to sell you a rooster, for the real Coq au Vin.

But he might sell you a nice elderly stew hen, or you can maybe get one from the supermarket or a farm market. That's still not the same thing, but it will produce something closer to Coq au Vin than a Tyson fryer will. A stew hen doesn't have an identical flavor and texture, cause it never had all that testosterone pumping through it, but it does have the same older muscle and connective tissue, the collagen, that melts into your sauce. After all, that poor bird is sold as a stew hen only after a long hard life laying eggs... and they sell the hens as soon as egg production declines.

In the unlikely event that you live near Amish farmers who sell to the public, you can always alert them ahead of time, you want an Old Bird... as Old as they've got. Even a rooster (c*ck), if he's outlived his usefulness.

I'm not that fussy, but there are some Viet dishes that simply can't be made with a supermarket fryer or broiler or roasting chicken. They've met their end too soon, didn't live long enough or well enough in their crowded little cages, so the flavor just isn't there in the bird. So for some things I just use an old stewing hen.

If you want to try a surprising bird sometime, and have money to burn, try roasting a capon. When they "caponize" a bird (castrate) and allow him to free-range and peck and grow big and fat, it produces a poultry that, to me, is better than any other form of chicken. Wildly expensive, but worthy of a holiday dinner.

This post has been edited by SimonBao: May 5, 2008 - 09:18 AM

[teleburst]

Kristl, you didn't read that article on The Med Diet very carefully. You seem to believe the whole thing is based on a single study conducted many years ago. Which you then use, by extension, to argue that Tuscany somehow isn't part of the Med Basin. Well, but that's wrong.

The article specifies how interest in The Med Diet was triggered by one study. Since then, The Med Diet has been one of the most extensively studied, researched, debated things in nutrition. Lots of studies, carried out by Europeans and North Americans and Australians. Among different national and ethnic groups in the Med Basin, etc. LOTS of research on different aspects of ingredients, on what's not in the diet, on lifestyle and activity, etc. Enough new research to sustain endless debate about what the results really show, what's coincidental and what's causal, what can really be inferred...

New findings get published all the time, "The Med Diet" is a staple of "Gourmet" type magazine, the racks at Borders have lots of "Med Diet" cookbooks... Kind of relentless. And the scientists are the only ones who emphasize that no, we don't really know that following the diet will do anything for anyone. One might be better off eating bacon every day but biking to work. And having your Bacon Botty served on whole grain toast....

I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle. I think that when one things of a Med. diet (especially in the context of "diet", not necessarily cuisine), one thinks of light fare. In one respect, Tuscan seems to fit the bill in that they don't seem to use a lot of butter, relying mostly on olive oil. However, their food is a lot more hardy than one might expect from a such a diet. Lots of stick-to-the-ribs meats, sausages and cheeses (and yes, truffles!).

I'm thinking that what Kristy is trying to say (oh lord, help me) is that it has far more in common with continental cuisine (especially rustic parts of it) than Med. cuisine, but I think that you could consider any cuisine that has an extensive coastline on the Med. under the Mediterranean umbrella. That makes my seder Mediterranean! Who knew that dipping boiled egg in the tears of my ancestors part of the Med. culinary tradition?

[dogabone]

If you want to try a surprising bird sometime, and have money to burn, try roasting a capon. When they "caponize" a bird (castrate) and allow him to free-range and peck and grow big and fat, it produces a poultry that, to me, is better than any other form of chicken. Wildly expensive, but worthy of a holiday dinner.

Simon, you've brought me a blast from the past. My grandmother (who was "chief cook and bottle washer" at our house since my Mom and Dad were both at the office all day) used to buy capons and pullets when I was a kid. These are terms you don't even hear anymore. While so many new terms and ingredients have come into contemporary cooking, I mourn the loss of the old standbys that have disappeared from both modern kitchens and cooks' vocabularies.

Gawd! I'm soooo old!

[dogabone]

That makes my seder Mediterranean! Who knew that dipping boiled egg in the tears of my ancestors part of the Med. culinary tradition?

Interesting that you say that. My family is strictly Ashkenazi, and we've always had hard-cooked eggs in salt water at our seders. I don't think either of my grandmothers had even a hint of Sephardic knowledge or tradition in her background.

[Kristlkrost]

I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle. I think that when one things of a Med. diet (especially in the context of "diet", not necessarily cuisine), one thinks of light fare. In one respect, Tuscan seems to fit the bill in that they don't seem to use a lot of butter, relying mostly on olive oil. However, their food is a lot more hardy than one might expect from a such a diet. Lots of stick-to-the-ribs meats, sausages and cheeses (and yes, truffles!).

I'm thinking that what Kristy is trying to say (oh lord, help me) is that it has far more in common with continental cuisine (especially rustic parts of it) than Med. cuisine, but I think that you could consider any cuisine that has an extensive coastline on the Med. under the Mediterranean umbrella. That makes my seder Mediterranean! Who knew that dipping boiled egg in the tears of my ancestors part of the Med. culinary tradition?

Listen here Teleman.
Anyone with a kitchen as pathetic as yours should not be opining on this matter.

Oh wait that was for another argument.

Well when did I say it was ok for you to think for me??





OK you can

And type for me too.....You said it all
magnificently as usual and the last part was very
beautiful.

You can think type and do what ever you like for
me from now on

The part about the meats and heavy is correct.
THAT is what I was trying to say.

(I did note the lack of a smiley face as you went
on about what I was trying to say mister hmmmmph)

PLUS it just ain't part of that basin........CONYO!!!
Umbrella ..yes ..but that is not the criteria for med style cooking.

If you were to assimilate that sort of thinking
then anything up and down the eastern seaboard
would be considered eastern Atlantic cooking.
No such thing.. It would be specific to a certain
region that they deem.... New England lets say.

Cooking seafood in the New England area
and how they do it...Yeah.. New Hampshire could be part of that umbrella.

But NH peeps do not cook like New England
peeps per se.

Capish????


What ancestry are you Tele??

I never asked...Man I'm slipping.




This post has been edited by Kristlkrost: May 5, 2008 - 10:21 AM

[SimonBao]

Because it is very specific and I know for sure that Tuscany cooking is not considered that and does not meet that criteria..Just like Cajun is not low country.

If someone said to me "low country cooking," my first response would be to find out if they know what they specifically mean by that. LOL

Do they mean the Netherlands and Belgium?

Or, hopefully, they mean the cuisine of folks in the tidal plain, estuaries, and islands of the Carolinas, but also extending also to some of the same tidal and soggy parts of Georgia and its sea islands. That they do include Gullah, but do not mistakenly mean Gullah. I know someone who thought "low country" and "Gullah" were the same. To the best of my knowledge, "Low Country" is analogous to what people mean when they say "Tidewater" in Virginia and NC.

[Kristlkrost]

If someone said to me "low country cooking," my first response would be to find out if they know what they specifically mean by that. LOL

Do they mean the Netherlands and Belgium?

Or, hopefully, they mean the cuisine of folks in the tidal plain, estuaries, and islands of the Carolinas, but also extending also to some of the same tidal and soggy parts of Georgia and its sea islands. That they do include Gullah, but do not mistakenly mean Gullah. I know someone who thought "low country" and "Gullah" were the same. To the best of my knowledge, "Low Country" is analogous to what people mean when they say "Tidewater" in Virginia and NC.

EXACTLY!!!!

Sheeesh....... I'm right..lol

[WhataJoke]

Hey everyone!

I have been incredibly busy, and have only read the first 10 pages. I have noticed, however, that my name has been taken in vain, (so to speak), so I decided I better write something out now, before I catch up with my reading.

I have decided, however, to take a slightly different approach, so that we don't end up having this board become a B&B/WAJ, Point/Counterpoint, as it seem to have the last couple of weeks. Instead, I'm just going to write a post why this week's elimination fit exactly into my "All About the Food" theory, and a second post on why it totally disproves the "ratings/fixed" theory. Simply my opinions, stated frankly, without all the back and forth. So .... onward!

For this week not to be about the food, you have to accept the concept that "off-putting" equals "inedible". It sure doesn't to me, for a couple of reasons. First, in my lexicon, on a scale of 0 to 10, off-putting could be anywhere from a 2 to a 5. It is a subjective term, and relies on personal taste. I find even the slightest amount of dill to be off-putting, but my wife loves it. Conversely, she is very sensitive to cilantro, whereas I love it. Neither would render any dish inedible; we just wouldn't care for the flavor combinations.

Secondly, we have seen off-putting many times before, and to my recollection, it has never been grounds for elimination, at least not on it's own. The first example that comes to mind is Casey's mole at Latin Lunch. Virtually no one liked it, yet she was not eliminated. When queried, she responded that it had turned out the way she wanted it to, so it came down to a matter of personal taste, and cheftestants are rarely eliminated for matters that can be considered personal taste, unless it's something like too much salt (and then the cheftestant usually makes the mistake of admitting there was too much at JT, instead of standing behind the dish).

So, by the end of JT, we had a dish that the judges didn't like the flavor profile of (though some people might, especially children), Mark's lousy curry, (which I thought was a mistake when he started talking about it), and an under-seasoned dish. (Frankly, all things being equal, I thought "under-seasoned" had a better chance of going home than did "off-putting"

As one of the three dishes was not distinctly worse than the others, the judges (as I've always maintained they do when there is not a clear "worst" dish), went to the next level of criteria; execution of the concept. As this was supposed to be a "family friendly" dish that people could replicate easily at home, Mark's dish was clearly the loser among the three. While you do not have to serve meat at every meal, a truly "family friendly", healthy meal does have to have protein. Mark was evidently oblivious to that fact, or that he could have a vegetarian dish that could supply the daily requirement of protein by adding things like beans, nuts or soy products. The other two dishes, though flawed, did provide at least some semblance of vitamins and proteins. His did not, thus he was eliminated, and it was for the food he prepared.

So, far from being "my worst nightmare", once again the judging was about the food.

My next post will explain why I think this, if not a "nightmare" for WAJ's point of view, it was at least a bad dream.

Your name was taken in vein? Did people miss Mass too?

Seriously It's good to see you back and glad to hear things are busy.

Wait I thought it was the "worst food goes" theory? It's certainly not "all about the food" as I could gon on and on about with casting past eliminations etc...

Yes I agree "offputing" could be a something that simply inspires a subjective responce, such as your aversion to Dill. However in Stephanie's case the dish was poorly executed as even the cous cous was overcooked, the flavor combination seemed to be disgusting, it was visually nausiating and also Padma "Detested" it, backing up the point that it was nasty. So I'd say that when Tom says "offputting" he's being kind and using a bit of Damage control for someone who has excelled in the past.

Your example of Casey Mole' at latin Lunch is close but Lia's food was poorly cooked, didn't taste good and wasn't latin and she deserved to go.

And Clearly Tom was fishing for any reason to eliminate Mark when he played the protien card. I talked to a friend of mind who is a nutritionist and the the only thing she could find that why people would think it was "unhealthy" was the coconut milk simply for the sautrated fat but also noted that the type of saturated fat in coconut milk also offers health benifits and is the subject of medical research for it's benefits. Between the vegetables and the coconut milk there was enough protien for a healthy meal as part of a balaced deit, that is unless your looking for some reason to eliminate someone on a Reality TV show.

Couple the coconut milk with the Sweet Potato, Squash and other vegetables and your assertion that his meal did not provide a semblance of Protien is wrong and your notion that it lacked vitamins is even more wrong.

Again this was another contestant being scapegoated to save two others who had worse food for various reasons.

[SimonBao]

Simon, you've brought me a blast from the past. My grandmother (who was "chief cook and bottle washer" at our house since my Mom and Dad were both at the office all day) used to buy capons and pullets when I was a kid. These are terms you don't even hear anymore. While so many new terms and ingredients have come into contemporary cooking, I mourn the loss of the old standbys that have disappeared from both modern kitchens and cooks' vocabularies.

Gawd! I'm soooo old!

Doga, it's very sad, but Capons just don't pay for most growers to produce. They're simply too large for most restaurant trade, who are all about speed and portion control. And Capons will be priced too high for most people at home. (Though that might change if more people asked for them.)

I didn't know much detail about them till last summer, when we obtained one from a local poultry guy. It was for a large day-long party, held during the Live Earth concerts. We were trying to very deliberately build the menu around what was available locally and in season, no problem in July down there, and especially not a problem with the sea at one's door. (Yes, there were Sea Beans.) But we ran into a stump when it came to Local Meat. We wanted to offer some meat, but what? The place crawls with wildlife but no one down there eats it, despite my own temptations. I kept offering to get the car keys and go get some local deer. Housemates went over to a local poultry guy to see what he had, I expected them to come back with some of his chickens or some rabbits, but they had a huge capon instead. He had been a big, happy, peaceful bird who'd free-ranged at liberty, feasting on grain and seeds and bugs and worms and grubs, etc. And never knew what he had been missing, sex-wise. Then we ate him.

Oh my. Can't say enough nice things about it. Just like a chicken, only more so.

[SimonBao]

Doga, regarding the Capons... there's an old custom among Vietnamese, for the First Day of the New Year, that places a great value on serving family and guests a dish made with a virgin male chicken. Myself, I think any customer who believes a Viet merchant who is promising you that this rooster is a virgin, if you believe that vendor... What, it's wearing a little chastity belt?

But my friend Hung and I were trying to compose a menu for First Day, and talking about the virgin male chickens, and I suggested we use a Capon. Hey, it's male! It's a virgin! He didn't think that was really following the spirit of the thing... The idea of the virgin male rooster is a bird that hasn't sapped or diminished its "vigor." Has not yet dispensed any of its Strangelovian "precious bodily fluids." We used a big fat roaster instead.

That's my friend Hung, not the TC Hung...........

[WhataJoke]

Ok, here's why I believe this elimination was certainly not about "ratings".

First, I pretty much dispute the idea of any of the eliminations being about ratings. For that to be true, the producers would have to look at the 2, 3 or 4 people eligible for elimination and tell the judges which one to send home. This, besides being illegal, would mean that the judges are just figureheads. I don't for one second that any of the judges, especially ones like Anthony Boudain and Daniel Boulod, would risk sullying their reputations in that manner. There is just too little to gain and too much to lose.

In the case of Mark's elimination, it doesn't even make sense. It goes against reason to think that either of the other two would bolster ratings more than he would. If I were a producer, Mark is the one person among those three that I would want to keep. He scores high with females from 18 to 42 because they think the little "Kiwi" is cute (just read the boards here). He also does well with males who like the "Dumb and Dumber/Thompson Brothers/Cheech and Chong" attitude he brings to the show. And, considering the "flavor of the week" definition seems to be controversy, well, past actions are the best predictors of future behavior, and who better to keep around than someone who has already "called out" the head judge? My gosh, I would be salivating to here what he would say the next time he was at JT.

No, if I were manipulating the eliminations for ratings, I would have sent either of the other two home before letting go of Mark.

Well, that's my opinion. I'll be interested to see how others have explained this week's outcome. Hopefully I can get caught up before Wed.

Uh your missing the point. The Producers and Judges aren't going into a show and saying "We have to eliminate so and so". They let the show play out and see what the contestants give them. They have production meetings and probably discuss story arch for the contestants. The challenges play out and they get three contestants to chose from to eliminate. This season has been rife with team challenges and that gives Tom and the Producers even more targets to pick from and more chances to let people that are good for the show to skate by.
And as far as the Guest Judges go, Tom has said in an interview that his opinion as head judge is enough to get his way so obviously the guest judges are following his lead as it is his show. And Tom has also said that he has given contestant's "breaks" before so dispite what he claims certain personal elements factor into Tom's judgement.

Just look at what is happening in this upcomming episode and tell me that people who create drama aren't perfect for that?

B&B if you were a Producer of a Reality TV show and you wanted to keep Mark instead of Lisa to manipulate the ratings, you'd be fired before the episode aired. Lisa is exactly what makes reality TV go. She creates conflict & strife and is very easily cast into the villian role. Name any famous reality tv shows and more often than not the villians of those shows will be the most famous people form those season. Just look at the first two seasons of this show. People tune in to see the villian lose! Just read the boards lol. For every one person who says Mark is cute there are many many more calling Lisa a bI#(h and can't wait for her to go.

And if you read any of the interviews the has said it was a joke when he said that Tom didn't like him. So you can edit it to appear like a confrontation but even Tom's smirks during the exchange betrayed it for the editted bit that is was.

[WhataJoke]

Actually, I was almost swayed for a minute when the editors showed us the clip of Padma using the word "disgusting". But then I remembered it was Padma, and how much her opinion matters. lol

Uh if you food gets panned by a pot head with the munchies its pretty much hopeless.