lisakaz
August 25, 2006 - 10:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know why anyone else hasn't pointed this out, but Jeffery had right to be upset. Jeffery was probably presented with the hardest task of any of the designers - creating a look with his touch for a woman who embodies the opposite of his aesthetic. He tried to keep her suggestions in mind. He chose dark blue as the main color and he took into account her comment about wanting to be covered.
When he couldn't find a second color that fit her taste he chose a color that matched the first color, rather than a color that would flatter the client. I have similar coloring, and I can't usually wear light blue either. But... and he should know this ... overweight women often gravitate to dark colors and he could have counseled her on expanding her range or pointed out that she had been wearing a similar color near her face when they met. Instead, he responded with a pouting hissy-fit and the silent treatment. He may have been justified in his feelings, but he wasn't justified in his behavior.
That's a good way of putting it: feelings vs. behavior. I've gotten the impression that those who have been most critical of Jeffrey wouldn't acknowledge that his feelings were justifiable. I think they were also and he may have felt double-teamed given Angela's involvement.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 10:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I could be wrong, but I think this is going to be one of the best PR episodes ever! What I really like is that I think it will give us a great chance to get a glimps of who the designers are as real people.
I admit it -- I was wrong, BIG TIME. This episode had so much potential, but Bravo blew it. More than any other episode this season, Heidi and her co-producers proved that all they really want this season is drama, drama, drama. What could have been touching and very revealing about all the designers was instead edited into tabloid fodder that abusively played up personalitiy conflict so that viewers could hardly keep their minds on the people and the designs.
needlesschatter wouldn't leave us alone a few weeks ago because of Bravo's perceived misuse of little dogs as drama fodder. To me, at least, that was nothing compared to this week's misuse of designer's loved ones as combination drama fodder / punching bags.
I agree with you on this. I hope someone senior at Bravo is reading these posts and taking heed. Yes, the boards light up when there is drama on the show, but when everyone cools down it is obvious that we really want more fashion and less drama. I am sure that all the designers succumb to the stress and the producers have fun with that, but we have all begged for more runway time and more design studio time. Please listen up, Bravo! Next season let's have more fashion, less backbiting!
Amen to that! The producers keep the drama queens on and let good designers go. Allison should not have been auf'd, but I guess they wanted to keep strange Vincent and poor Robert around.
All we have learned about fashion from this show is that only smaller sized women deserve to be fashionable, while overweight women have to be content with tents. I did a show one time, and I wasn't terribly overwieght, but the other two girls were "perfect" sizes. The costume designer told me he couldn't design a flattering outfit for me(I believe I wore size 14 at the time). I hated the dresses he made, and I deserved better. Just shows that if you are not a size 2, you get no respect.
kayleighsays
August 25, 2006 - 10:26 PM
Quote:
I was watching Larry King tonight and the show was about Project Runway. On the show was Tim, Heidi and Niina. As they talked about the show and showed scenes from the show they showed a scene where Uli and Jeffrey where the only two left in the design room and by the way they were talking it was if they were the final two. The show then went quickly to commerical and when it returned it was showing the remaning contestants. If I am correct I believe the Larry King Show messed up and showed that Jeffrey and Uli will be the final two. There was no in in the design room but the two of them and the rest of the design tables were completely clean.
If that's true, then I'm giving up the show. Jeffery needs to go now, and I've been saying this since the very beginning. He was amazingly rude to Darlene, etc etc, but he's also always been arrogant. He is under this strange assumption that he is a gift to the world. Hey, Jeffery, YOU'RE NOT. The newspaper dress last week was the first thing he's designed that I actually saw something in. His designs are too stage-wearish and costumey. He isn't talented, end of story.
Robert leaving broke my heart. Yes, he was boring sometimes, but he made better quality than most of the desingers. And I love his personality. He and Kayne are my favorites together. I am going to miss that so much.
I'd be fine with Uli being in the final two-in fact, I'd root for that. But Michael, Laura, or Kayne better be with her. Or else PR and I are breaking up for good.
lisakaz
August 25, 2006 - 10:28 PM
Quote:
Even though I am aware of editing, I still think it was in poor taste for Angela to tell her Mom " if they ask, answer the judges honestly". (Ok, Mom you have my permission to trash Jeffrey). She could have said, " Mom, negative comments about another designer's outfit may make good tv but as a professional, I wouldn't want to be a party to it." Instead when asked, they both trashed the outfit. Again, when the opportunity to take the high road is presented, they both decided to take the low road.
Oh please, give me a break. It is her mother and I'd expect her to console her mother and try and make her feel better. I don't consider that coaching. I don't know where you people are getting that. I'd do everything in my power to make my mother comfortable and sympathize with her problems at hand. That's just me. I honestly don't see how you guys see Jeffrey as the victim. Would he talk that way to any of his celebrity clients? I doubt it. It breaks my heart to see that woman cry and say, 'it was great up to now'. I can only imagine my mother coming to have an enjoyable time and some thick neck with literature on it, speak to her that way. And his mother was just as bad. She could have gone to him and told him to stand up for his rights, but not speak to her that way. Enabler?? I see why he was on drugs.
Did you hear Tim's podcast? He said Angela poured gasoline on that situation which was bad from the first consult. It seems Darlene and Jeffrey didn't get on from the beginning. Don't know what Angela told her or if Jeffrey projected or what. But Tim did not condemn Jeffrey outright, while he did feel sympathy for Darlene. His comments about Angela were negative and comments about Jeffrey's mom were positive.
lisakaz
August 25, 2006 - 10:32 PM
Quote:
I was watching Larry King tonight and the show was about Project Runway. On the show was Tim, Heidi and Niina. As they talked about the show and showed scenes from the show they showed a scene where Uli and Jeffrey where the only two left in the design room and by the way they were talking it was if they were the final two. The show then went quickly to commerical and when it returned it was showing the remaning contestants. If I am correct I believe the Larry King Show messed up and showed that Jeffrey and Uli will be the final two. There was no in in the design room but the two of them and the rest of the design tables were completely clean.
That doesn't make sense. For one, it's a final 3, not 2. Second, the finalists do not do their runway preparation in Parsons, or at least they have not done so before this season. They work on their show in their own space and do the final tweaking somewhere else (perhaps to allow for Parson's own students to resume using that space). This year may be different, given the scheduling was different but at best we can conclude that Uli and Jeffrey are going deep into the competition.
msjones
August 25, 2006 - 10:36 PM
We will see what happens at the send of the show. But I truly believe that Jeffrey and Uli will be the final two. The dressing room was clear of everyone but the two of them and the work tables were completely clean except for Uli and Jeffrey's table.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 10:39 PM
Quote:
Wow - I've been thinking for the last 3-4 episodes that Jeffrey's arrogance, snottiness, rudeness, along with some of his designs (which I find hideous) make him a perfect choice to hit the road. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why they want such a jerk on the show. I've been disgusted with his behavior and attitude for a long time, not just tonight. Whether Angela's Mom is a saint or a nasty manipulator, it doesn't change what Jeffrey is one iota. I wouldn't let him design a handkerchief for me. I wouldn't even tolerate him being in the same room with me. And overcoming addiction is no excuse for treating anyone badly. I hope Michael wins - he's smart, talented, and a gentleman.
The producers want to keep the jerks as long as possible. Look at Santino from last season. There were so many times he should have been auf'd, but was kept on for the drama. Look for bad boy Jeffrey to make it all the way to the end. Talent doesn't seem to matter here, only drama and ratings.
msjones
August 25, 2006 - 10:44 PM
Jeffrey does a great deal of talking but has won not one competition. he is rude and so full of hisself. His mom said that she ws so proud of him because he was a recoverying alcholic well maybe she teach how to be a recovered HUMAN BEING!
eyelikepr
August 25, 2006 - 10:53 PM
Did you hear Tim's podcast? He said Angela poured gasoline on that situation which was bad from the first consult. It seems Darlene and Jeffrey didn't get on from the beginning. Don't know what Angela told her or if Jeffrey projected or what. But Tim did not condemn Jeffrey outright, while he did feel sympathy for Darlene. His comments about Angela were negative and comments about Jeffrey's mom were positive.
I didn't see the podcast, but in the editing process, which resulted in the broadcast, Darlene was very nice to Jeff. She even admitted that she thought she was limiting him. His whole demeanor at the consult was purely rude. And even on the runway, she addressed the issue with dignity and class. I'm not on his side. I agree with the post who says it's the way he said it and not that we couldn't empathize with his frustration. But he wouldn't have talked that way to J-Lo.
Plus, the lightbulb came on...I worked in television for 15 yrs, I've sat in newsrooms where they sat around a table and determined how to slant a news story, so it shouldn't surprise me that it was no coincidence that Jeffrey's name was last in the bag. The show IS edited. So it could have been a set-up, all along for dramatic emphasis.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 10:54 PM
Quote:
jeffrey has his own label, why would he want to design for another designer? considering the way angela's mom looked, continually shooting down every one of jeffrey's ideas and then bitching about him for following her lead, not to mention the clothes her daughter designs, she sure was demanding and expecting a lot. when other designers and their models disagreed, they discussed it rationally, angela's mom broke down and started a cry fest. both her and her daughter need to grow up and wake up to the real world...you're not in ohio anymore.
What show were you watching? How on earth was Angela's mom "Demanding". I just don't get it. There was no reason to be that rude. I'm still furious with him and want him to go ASAP!!!!!
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:00 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My big long post about tonight's show.
I don't get it. How was Angela's mom demanding? Jeffrey didn't even try to make something flattering for her. He hates Angela, so he was nasty to her mom. If Jeffrey had actually designed a good outfit the color wouldn't have been an issue. Jeffrey was rude and his design sucked big time. How can you defend him?
I can defend him because I saw so much of my own mother in Darlene (From the name to the size to the attitude) that it's on the line of hysterical and not-even-funny.
"I would like a jacket..." When he explains that there's no way he'd have the time to finish a jacket (if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is fuzzy cuz it's late) she had very little to bring to the conversation. She was so obsessed about the colors she had no chance at all to bring in any of her own ideas or anything to it. She was in no way interested in what Jeffery had to say once he said he couldn't do the jacket in the time allotted and especially once he ended up without the colors she definatively wanted.
And seriously? I don't think it's so much that she was demanding as that she just really over-reacted, which threw Jeff waaaay off the edge, which made her over-react more. I am the QUEEN of over-reactions... my friends HATE me for it... and I could see SO much of that in her. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that Jeffery was an angel, that he was completely right... I feel that he was a jerk, but seriously? "Nobody treats me that way. I was totally humiliated!" That's something I hear my mom say a million times a day. It smacks of pride without the ability to stick up and say something. "I'm sorry, I would have said it whether or not you were here" doesn't cut it. If you odn't like something, make it work. I'm not saying she had to design the outfit, but couldn't she have given him something to work with other than "I want a top. I like dark blues, purples, and greens"?
I won't he was perfect, but I refuse to start talking about how his "drug-addled a**" is going to go nuts and start shooting up the place. This is a situation that one person couldn't get into alone.
And when Angela got into it? Oh, things could only spiral downhill from there.
This was a good reflection. Darlene was no help at all except for being unrealistic in the jacket thing and the colors. It seemed other designers got ideas from their "clients."
So Angela's mom is at fault because she didn't give him enough good ideas. What a load of crap. He is supposed to be a designer, and able to come up with flattering clothes for anyone. Seems to me that the posters who support Jeffrey are the Angela haters. Well, I didn't like her at first, but even so there is no way that Jeffrey's attitude or the styling of the dress are excusable.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:05 PM
Quote:
Quote:
For those of you who say that Jefferey is a designer and that Angela's mom was the difficult one... I ask "what are you smoking?" The fact of the matter is that FASHION is a business...yes, it's art too...but if you make crap, how do you expect to sell it? Now as far as how he treated Angela's mom...he was sooo way out of line! If she had been Madonna, would he have spoken to her that way? Uh no. And I just cannot believe that Jeffery's mother was making excuses for him. How wacked is that? If I was Angela's mother, I would have told him where to go and how to get there! I would also not show up for the runway. that would have really screwed him.
And what positive things did Darlene bring to the table? What did she tell Jeff about what she wanted? A jacket? No can do in a day. Joker colors? Doesn't quite work. I didn't see her give any other information to help him.
How could Darlene be positive? He was negative from the first word. Purple and green are not JOKE colors. I made a gorgeous quilt for my sister that emphasized those two colors. And come on, colors aside, his design was tasteless. He put no effort into it. That is the true crime. If his design had been flattering and he had been nicer, she would have been very happy. Stop ragging on a poor woman that you don't even know. Would you want to see your mom treated like that?
eyelikepr
August 25, 2006 - 11:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My big long post about tonight's show.
I don't get it. How was Angela's mom demanding? Jeffrey didn't even try to make something flattering for her. He hates Angela, so he was nasty to her mom. If Jeffrey had actually designed a good outfit the color wouldn't have been an issue. Jeffrey was rude and his design sucked big time. How can you defend him?
I can defend him because I saw so much of my own mother in Darlene (From the name to the size to the attitude) that it's on the line of hysterical and not-even-funny.
"I would like a jacket..." When he explains that there's no way he'd have the time to finish a jacket (if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is fuzzy cuz it's late) she had very little to bring to the conversation. She was so obsessed about the colors she had no chance at all to bring in any of her own ideas or anything to it. She was in no way interested in what Jeffery had to say once he said he couldn't do the jacket in the time allotted and especially once he ended up without the colors she definatively wanted.
And seriously? I don't think it's so much that she was demanding as that she just really over-reacted, which threw Jeff waaaay off the edge, which made her over-react more. I am the QUEEN of over-reactions... my friends HATE me for it... and I could see SO much of that in her. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that Jeffery was an angel, that he was completely right... I feel that he was a jerk, but seriously? "Nobody treats me that way. I was totally humiliated!" That's something I hear my mom say a million times a day. It smacks of pride without the ability to stick up and say something. "I'm sorry, I would have said it whether or not you were here" doesn't cut it. If you odn't like something, make it work. I'm not saying she had to design the outfit, but couldn't she have given him something to work with other than "I want a top. I like dark blues, purples, and greens"?
I won't he was perfect, but I refuse to start talking about how his "drug-addled a**" is going to go nuts and start shooting up the place. This is a situation that one person couldn't get into alone.
And when Angela got into it? Oh, things could only spiral downhill from there.
I still think you are wrong to defend the rudeness and absolute insensitivity that Jeffrey showed.
If he is the great designer, then he should have been able to create something that would represent his best in such a difficult challenge and not cut off his nose to spite his face. I wonder if he really thought that outfit looked good? If so, then he has some serious design problems. It's him that's trying to get to fashion week, not Darlene, so I would have done my best to make sure she looked great.
But I will say, after this challenge, it has shown me that these designers are not as creative, versatile or befitting to be America's Next Top Designer. I can think of a hundred things to put a larger woman in and I'm not a designer.
I'm sorry, I liked Jeffrey at first, but now...I don't.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:23 PM
Quote:
I really can't beleive how rude and downright mean Angela and her mom were to Jeff. I know he didn't handle himself very well, but come on. How on earth do they call Jeffery's work "matronly?" Is that some kind of joke? That had to be the most matronly boring women I had ever seen, and that is the last thing you would think of Jeff or any of his work so far. Nobody wanted to work with her. She looks like a fat ugly idiot because she is. Sorry if Jeffery just has the balls to say some things that he shouldn't but he clearly has the skill to keep going in this competition.
Honestly I think its Uli, Jeffery, and then either Micheal or Kayne making the final 3. Angela and Vincient need to go away I've had enough of thier "wacky" ways. They would make good clown costumes together I'm sure. Laura too sadly needs to show something more exiting if she expects to stay in the show when its down to the really good designers.
Wait a minute here. Angela's mom didn't deserve a nice dress because she is fat and ugly?????????????? Wow, I can't believe I just read that. All of you Jeffrey lovers need to apologize big time to Angela's mom and to all overweight women everywhere. It is very possible to flatter older, overweight women. Just watch "What Not to Wear" and Monique's show about fat(Phat) women. Not everyone is a size two. Get real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:30 PM
Quote:
Or, he got Angela's mom because no way in hell any other designer was gonna pick that disgusting person. Jeffery doesn't politely hide his disgust well, but it doesn't help when people like Angela and her mom love to knowingly antagonize and draw out drama as thier way of crying for attention. Angela was taking full advantage of her opportunity to try and paint Jeffery as the big jerk and did a better job than I would have hoped Jeff would let her get away with.
Huh? How would any of the designers have known anything about Angela's mom? The first designers to choose picked the slimmer models. Laura's mom wasn't that gorgeous, but she was slimmer. I can't feed into your assumptions that Angela's mom was totally in the wrong. Poor woman. She was probably excited to be there, and she got trashed in the end by you, by Jeffrey and by the Producers and Judges. Big time apologies should be coming from all of you. How dare you judge a woman you've never met.
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:38 PM
Quote:
i dunno, its the fact that jeff has absolutely no boundaries that really makes him appealing to me
he doesnt need to kiss peoples asses to get by and just comes right out with whats on his mind
it seems like hes built himself a sucessful career in stage wear already so hes doing something right
his straight-forward attitude suites the industry hes into
Well if being a jerk makes him a successful designer, then you can have the whole industry. NOne of the other designers would have been that rude to their client. The only one I could see doing that would be Santino from last season, because he said so many times that he didn't care about other people, and he was always crass and rude.
rufus2u
August 25, 2006 - 11:51 PM
Angela's mom is a colossal wimp. Listening to her whimper made me want to smack her. Who has time (in the pressure cooker that is Project Runway) to deal with human mimosas? One day to create an outfit from scratch and I can perfectly well understand why Jeffrey wanted her out of his face.
eyelikepr
August 25, 2006 - 11:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I really can't beleive how rude and downright mean Angela and her mom were to Jeff. I know he didn't handle himself very well, but come on. How on earth do they call Jeffery's work "matronly?" Is that some kind of joke? That had to be the most matronly boring women I had ever seen, and that is the last thing you would think of Jeff or any of his work so far. Nobody wanted to work with her. She looks like a fat ugly idiot because she is. Sorry if Jeffery just has the balls to say some things that he shouldn't but he clearly has the skill to keep going in this competition.
Surely you don't believe what you're saying. You're trying to be controversial or instigate something. No one or no adult can be this cruel.
What if Angela's mother had graffitti written all over her neck, would you like her more?
dcben1
August 25, 2006 - 11:57 PM
Quote:
Completely agree! Before last night's episode, I didn't like Jeffery or his designs. Love him now. One of the mom's (think it was Laura's) said she wanted her child to win but would never do anything to hurt her designer's chances. Not Angela's mom. She is VERY insecure. Again, I like Jeffrey now. He is REAL. Git R done, Jeff!!!!!!
Oh puleeze. Did you ever think that insecure women have just as much right to correct treatment and to a good design? I don't buy the Jeffrey lovers. What are you smoking?
pfeffa
August 26, 2006 - 12:19 AM
I know that this is WAY off the track here, but give me back Demitra!!
dcben1
August 26, 2006 - 12:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
i'm sorry, but the show was on three times tonight and i watched it each time. more and more i saw that the ONLY rude thing jeff said TO darlene was that he didn't want her to stand there. and then he said she was being a [expletive deleted] to him when he's so stressed out. he meant that she was being difficult. LOTS of people phrase it that way.
now, the rest of the time, if you paid attention, he was very polite to her. when he finished the dress, he said, "okay, so i have your dress. you can go behind the screen over there and change and i'll be right over in a few minutes." and said very friendily. then he smiled when he saw her even though he heard what angela was saying, and said, "okay now follow me and i'll fit the shoulders." again, very nicely. when he was being judged, he did not say anything negative about her. he laughed when she said they were very different. he was NOT mean to her the whole time, guys. and c'mon, he was so sad when robert had to leave. he also appeared to genuinely appreciate and love his mom and was excited to be with her. he had a rough past, but he has moved on. quit trying to tear him down, please.
In the bonus videos you can really see a lot more of what took place that didn't make the editing. Angela for sure took her Mom into the ladies' room and I am sure they had a good chat about mean old Jeffrey. Although I think a woman of her age should not be so sensitive, Angela's mom also has arthritis and some other "issues" so she ended up being a good sport by just making it down the runway.
What on earth does age have to do with sensitivity. Buck it up after a certain age? There is NOTHING wrong with being insecure. I'm glad your life is so perfect, but please don't judge older women with insecurities. I bet you have insecurities too, you just hide them.
Spearshaker75
August 26, 2006 - 12:24 AM
Quote:
Angela's mom is a colossal wimp. Listening to her whimper made me want to smack her. Who has time (in the pressure cooker that is Project Runway) to deal with human mimosas? One day to create an outfit from scratch and I can perfectly well understand why Jeffrey wanted her out of his face.
I'm up on about the last 20 pages and I have to say it's not ALL Jeffery's fault. I've said before I think he's probably going to win, but it's no new revelation that I'm not very fond of him. But... I have to give credit to the idea that THIS is his actual life, and be darned sure that in your ACTUAL life, you're going to end up being rude to a person or two. Not that I'm totally trying to excuse him; I felt totally debilitated when I saw Angela's mom crying. But I also know this was all done for maximum dramatic an emotional effect; sothose on here talking about how they'd discipline their 10 year olds if the treated an "elder" in such a fashion, let go of your soap-box silliness and acknowledge that in front of you is someone actually fighting for a career. Now, did I say anything about how EVERY full-size design got criticized (except for Uli; but I have to say, what else is new?), and perhaps how the judges would have done themselves a lot more credit by actually giving the challenge to Uli, instead of Vincent whose model (Uli's mom) would have looked great in a wine barrel? Next challenge - Vincent dresses his own sister. Maybe it sounds cruel, but could he do it with a yawny cocktail dress?
swiss74
August 26, 2006 - 12:27 AM
Just jumping in
I am not an Angela lover or hater. I don't particularly like the garments she has designed except for the one that was featured in Macy's window. I think that was toned down because she was toned down by Michael and Laura.
As for the Darlene and Jeffrey debacle. I think they both were to blame for what happened. That does not mean I excuse Jeffrey for his behavior. She was upset because she wanted a jacket and he said because of the time constraints that was impossible. That from what I could see upset Darlene somewhat. Then it began, Jeffrey asking her to leave his workspace could have been handled more diplomatically and then it was a mess happening. It was an unfortunate occurrance.
Who was to blame, there is enough to go around. Darlene did not understand why "no jacket." Jeffrey was very curt in his response. Darlene had asked for purple and dark green for the color combination and as the video shows, the dark green material selection in Jeff's opinion was not good. So he chose a periwinkle blue which worked with the purple she had asked for. She did not like that. She told Tim she was upset about that. She did not like the design of the garment either. It was like a snowball going down a hill.
Like I said Jeffrey did not have to be so curt in his request for her to leave the area. He could have said, I really need to work on this and I can't really talk now. Can you come back in a little bit later we can chat while I am fitting the outfit.
I certainly do not approve of Jeff's actions but I don't think Darlene should have been so rigid either and carried the situation to the extreme she did.
dcben1
August 26, 2006 - 12:50 AM
Quote:
Jeffrey is a professional and let's face it, Angela's mom was not the kind of client he will ever design for. It is okay to turn down business for a client that does not meet your profile. In the spirit of the show, Jeffrey drew a line in the sand. Professionalism or kiss up. Although I did not like the dress, I disliked the attitude of the client more and would have dropped her in a red hot second. If she knows so much about fashion, make the dress herself. I feel no empathy for a rude and condesending client. Get a life. When you deal with creative people like Jeffrey, you give them their space to give you their best. When you put them in a box, you get a box. Get with the program all of you Jeffrey haters lack appreciation for his undeniable talent. Rock on Jeffrey. I wish you all the best.
If Jeffrey didn't like the challenge, he should have left the show. The whole idea of PR is to do the best with the challenges given. Jeffrey didn't even try to make something flattering. In the real world you have to work with all different types of clients. Jeffrey was clearly in the wrong. Cna't wait to see him auf'd.
swiss74
August 26, 2006 - 12:51 AM
I had to laugh when this whole thing was going on, I kept wondering what Bradley's take on the whole thing would be. I miss his very dry sense of humor, it was a tension breaker that is for sure. As I said I really miss his dry sense of humor.
dcben1
August 26, 2006 - 12:53 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe. But I think this "he didn't listen to her" is ridiculous. I still didn't think his outfit was as bad as Angela's disaster.
He didn't listen to her b/c he didn't respect her & he didn't listen to himself either & his outfit wasn't fit for publlic viewing.
You didn't answer the question: listen to what? Making a fitted jacket? Dark green with purple? What exactly? We got no clue and I suspect her taste level was as messed up as her daughters, which is why none of the other designers picked her.
If you want me to venture out on a rickty limb & try to explain why Heidi said he didn't listen to his client, well I'm not about to try & bring some sanity to their comments b/c they are always so contradictory & arbitrary. However, he didn't take anything she said into consideration b/c he had no respect for anything she said. She certainly didn't say "I would like a muumuu/minesterial robe w/ a jacked up collar". She told him what colors she likes, that didn't mean he was forced to incorporate every color in the garment. As I said b4, I think he had a valid point about the fitted jacket not being doable w/ the time constraint, something Darlene probably didn't consider since she isn't a designer. However, he took it upon himseld to make a vest, that could have been tailored. The rest of the outfit could have been fitted/tailored to try to satisfy that portion of her comments. Whatever her taste level is, it certainly wasn't going to be judged at the runway show, so why spend time critiquing her personal style? As far as his design goes, it was absolutely horrid. It didn't even look like anything you'd think he would design, except for those ridiculous buttons maybe. Jeff threw his hands up when he was left w/ Angie's mom, he didn't even try, he was totally unprofessional. If you mean to say that the best he could have done is a muumuu, that the client certainly didn't ask for, well I for one thought he had more talent than that. But if he can't handle a few obstacles & can only design under perfect conditions for perfect size 2s, well then maybe he doesn't have that much talent after all.
Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!11
eyelikepr
August 26, 2006 - 01:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My big long post about tonight's show.
I don't get it. How was Angela's mom demanding? Jeffrey didn't even try to make something flattering for her. He hates Angela, so he was nasty to her mom. If Jeffrey had actually designed a good outfit the color wouldn't have been an issue. Jeffrey was rude and his design sucked big time. How can you defend him?
I can defend him because I saw so much of my own mother in Darlene (From the name to the size to the attitude) that it's on the line of hysterical and not-even-funny.
"I would like a jacket..." When he explains that there's no way he'd have the time to finish a jacket (if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is fuzzy cuz it's late) she had very little to bring to the conversation. She was so obsessed about the colors she had no chance at all to bring in any of her own ideas or anything to it. She was in no way interested in what Jeffery had to say once he said he couldn't do the jacket in the time allotted and especially once he ended up without the colors she definatively wanted.
And seriously? I don't think it's so much that she was demanding as that she just really over-reacted, which threw Jeff waaaay off the edge, which made her over-react more. I am the QUEEN of over-reactions... my friends HATE me for it... and I could see SO much of that in her. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that Jeffery was an angel, that he was completely right... I feel that he was a jerk, but seriously? "Nobody treats me that way. I was totally humiliated!" That's something I hear my mom say a million times a day. It smacks of pride without the ability to stick up and say something. "I'm sorry, I would have said it whether or not you were here" doesn't cut it. If you odn't like something, make it work. I'm not saying she had to design the outfit, but couldn't she have given him something to work with other than "I want a top. I like dark blues, purples, and greens"?
I won't he was perfect, but I refuse to start talking about how his "drug-addled a**" is going to go nuts and start shooting up the place. This is a situation that one person couldn't get into alone.
And when Angela got into it? Oh, things could only spiral downhill from there.
I still think you are wrong to defend the rudeness and absolute insensitivity that Jeffrey showed.
If he is the great designer, then he should have been able to create something that would represent his best in such a difficult challenge and not cut off his nose to spite his face. I wonder if he really thought that outfit looked good? If so, then he has some serious design problems. It's him that's trying to get to fashion week, not Darlene, so I would have done my best to make sure she looked great.
But I will say, after this challenge, it has shown me that these designers are not as creative, versatile or befitting to be America's Next Top Designer. I can think of a hundred things to put a larger woman in and I'm not a designer.
I'm sorry, I liked Jeffrey at first, but now...I don't.
dcben1
August 26, 2006 - 01:54 AM
Quote:
Lauren makes so many high waisted dresses because she makes her own clothes and is usually pregnant.
Seriously, she needs to get an abortion. I think 5 is enough, especially since she appears to be a very neglectful and non-nurturing mom.
Since you have never seen her with her children, how can you determine that she is a bad mom. As for suggesting an abortion, how awful. My grandmother had 7 children, and her comment to people like you was, which child should I not have had. She loved all of her children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren, and I am blessed with a huge family.
swiss74
August 26, 2006 - 02:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Lauren makes so many high waisted dresses because she makes her own clothes and is usually pregnant.
Seriously, she needs to get an abortion. I think 5 is enough, especially since she appears to be a very neglectful and non-nurturing mom.
Since you have never seen her with her children, how can you determine that she is a bad mom. As for suggesting an abortion, how awful. My grandmother had 7 children, and her comment to people like you was, which child should I not have had. She loved all of her children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren, and I am blessed with a huge family.
My father had 9 sisters. He was the second youngest child. So I too appreciate a large family. When we all got together it was like a party royal. Loads of kids and just a good all round time.
dcben1
August 26, 2006 - 02:39 AM
Quote:
"I do think the green and purple would have looked beautiful!"
Uh, sorry, but have you forgotten Jeffrey said he couldn't find a good color green? HE's not my favorite (by far!) and I think he was out of line in how he spoke to his elder/client/guest on the show, but let's be fair, he can't give her what he doesn't have!
I thought the blue popped very nicely and drew the eye to her lovely face (which is what I thought he was going for, hence the comments that sometime others can see something beautiful about someone that they can't see. I think he saw a beauty in her face that would be highlighted by a light color-especially the blue-close to her face) The rest was pretty bad, but he gave her some of what she asked for.
I thought Angela's comment on the runway was uncalled for. I thought her mother did look attractive. I really liked the blue at her face. He was very limited by what she wanted.
Are you kidding? that dress was hideous!
damselfly
August 26, 2006 - 03:05 AM
Good thoughts about everything. I'd like to add that the producers of the show definitely owe apologies to the moms and sisters who participated. They came in with great expectations, and only a few were given a dress they would, could, should wear. Also the producers should have allowed more time for the challenge, because what the end products showed was quite a few talentless designers. We learned that most of them are able to design only for skinny models. How many of them, in the real world are going to design for skiiny clients?
Also, I agree that the sizes of the women should hve been more comparable. The producers really made a sucky show. How dare they capitalize on the weak, zeroing on the poor overweight women, especially Angela's mom who did NOTHING to provoke such reactions.
I think the time thing is a ver good point. I don't see the need for the time to get more crunched...unless they are trying to shrink the overall production time. Good construction and ideas = good designs on the runway. What you're rewarding is who can make the least ugly in the least amount of time and is that really the point. WHo can cut the most corners and still have a dressed model on the runway. I don't know, I think it should be about the end result and not so much about the process....It's would still be a challenge to design out of recycled materials in 2 days instead of one. And if the designers aren't sleeping and overly stressed are you really seeing their best work? Idon't know....
damselfly
August 26, 2006 - 03:09 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I was watching Larry King tonight and the show was about Project Runway. On the show was Tim, Heidi and Niina. As they talked about the show and showed scenes from the show they showed a scene where Uli and Jeffrey where the only two left in the design room and by the way they were talking it was if they were the final two. The show then went quickly to commerical and when it returned it was showing the remaning contestants. If I am correct I believe the Larry King Show messed up and showed that Jeffrey and Uli will be the final two. There was no in in the design room but the two of them and the rest of the design tables were completely clean.
That doesn't make sense. For one, it's a final 3, not 2. Second, the finalists do not do their runway preparation in Parsons, or at least they have not done so before this season. They work on their show in their own space and do the final tweaking somewhere else (perhaps to allow for Parson's own students to resume using that space). This year may be different, given the scheduling was different but at best we can conclude that Uli and Jeffrey are going deep into the competition.
Besides aren't they in their Runway Show process at home even as we speak? So they wouldn't have footage of the final anything except on the runway at Parsons.
gina2
August 26, 2006 - 03:24 AM
gm damsel, swiss, brillke, boarders!! =o)
Wow!! as usual I had 10 pages of posts to wad thru to get here lol. I agree this whole episode was skewed from the beginning, the moms and sisters should have been told they were going to be modelling, jeff could have been a bit more tactful, darlene could have been a bit less rigid, and the designers should have had 2 days to do the design. They have allowed the designers 2 days before and edited down to enough for an hour, why not now? They were going for the drama and it showed. I vote they destroy this episode and make another one lol. anyways just my two, maybe 3 cents.
gina2
August 26, 2006 - 03:25 AM
thats wade* not wad lol
dogabone
August 26, 2006 - 03:40 AM
I urge everyone to check out the bonus videos for this episode. Besides having more workroom footage (more of which should have aired), you'll see things that may change your mind, whatever direction it's leaning in.
There's a ladies' room "consultation" between Angela and her mom, some material with Vincent that certainly made me look at him with newfound respect, and a bit of a post mortem in one of the apartments.
Let me know whether viewing these has altered any of your thinking. It has changed mine.
annay
August 26, 2006 - 03:44 AM
Apparently Jeff really knows how to terrify women via verbal violence. Many people try to describe him as a nice and sensitive person, but I cannot see it. When he made a polite effort to explain his color choice, Tim Gunn was present; his explanation was more directed to Tim than to Angela's mom. After Tim Gunn left, he started to attack Angela's mom as an annoying and insecure aged woman. It seems to me that he knows when and how to attack the weak; his action was very well caculated. And after the attack, he also knew that Angela's mom was afraid of him; so there was no need to terrify her until the next time she talks back. Jeff looked polite during fitting not because he was nice, but because Angela's mom was quite, submissive, and in fear. She gave her honest response to the dress when they were on the runway because she knew it was the only place where she would be protected (by the judges) and where Jeff was forced to wear a mask.
Angela was not afraid of Jeff and always fights back; I believe we will see their battle continue.
gina2
August 26, 2006 - 04:08 AM
hi annay, welcome to the boards!! and yes the battle does continue as I saw on the ads for next week lol.
notevayas
August 26, 2006 - 04:09 AM
Quote:
I just find it curious that we (myself included) tend to forgive men when they are being aggressive/cunning/arrogant/competitive, but not so much the women.
I'm guilty of that. Not every woman has a man to fight for her or wants him to, and it's not fair how women have to disguise their ambition and play by a different set of rules. And when they do this, some people turn around and say they are being favored.
It must be confusing to women to wonder when they should wait for a man to open the door for them (so they will not seem pushy) and when they should race right through (so the door won't be slammed in their face).
notevayas
mainer
August 26, 2006 - 04:31 AM
so many quotes to reply to...... laura needs to get an aborton?.fat ugly people?.,Jeffery is going to win Please.......... lauras choice didnt ask for imput on her children she is here to design n be seen like all. n maybe even win.... there are tons of overweight people out there that you would not want to meet in a dark alley calling them FAT N UGLY, there are great clothes for them,and stylish to boot. not all are size 2 n 3. dont believe there is a snowballs chance in hell that jeffery can win....he should stick to the clients he has.Real people are not his forte. as to his behavior. he should count his lucky stars it wasnt my mom he spoke to like that. did angelas mom expect too much ,most likly, but there was a nice way to tlk to her n he didnt even try from the get go. all the othere designers showed respect to their models. the dress looked like a tent with patchwork quilt for a top.it was sewn well n that was it. he was out of his league on this challenge as with most. his mom making excuse s for him was off the charts.
the producers do owe apologies to all of them. they should have goten professional plus size models for all to see if they can design for all women not just skinny tall models .
more time should have been given for this challenge if they wanted a decent show. all they produced was an insult to all every day women.loved PR last season .this yr hmmmmmmm? santino was interesting but al ot was said in joking....... jeffery is just rude crude n socially unacceptable........ he needs anger management, n some classes on sociaql graces n if he want to make it in the fashion world needs to practice principals over personalities n treat all clients with respect. RESPECT a word he evidently doesnt know.
ex nyer stuck in maine
notevayas
August 26, 2006 - 04:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Angela needs to go next though. Coaching her mom was dirty pool.
COACHING???!!! Try loving and supporting her mother! I would have done the same thing to console my mother. The saddest thing she said was that the experience was 'great' up to the arguing. I felt sorry for her. Here is her time to be with her child and enjoy NYC and a memorable experience and then she has to be spoken to in such a way. Nah, not right. I would have done the same thing Angela did for her mother. It would break my heart to see her not enjoying a chance of a lifetime.
Yeah, good point. And Angela never told her to lie.
I agree now with the posters that blame this whole fiasco of a show on the producers. They did not tell these women that they would be modeling. And then they give the designers one day instead of two. And some designers have the additional challenge of designing and sewing for a plus size model.
But from our emotional, (mine included!) reactions, and the attention that got them a spot on Larry King show (missed it ), the producers got what they wanted.
Angela's Mom never signed up for public humiliation and to have a mental diagnoses for her debated. Vincent's sister never knew she would have to maneuver her arthritic hip down a long runway under hot lights. No wonder she insisted on plain colours.. why should she be humiliated in zebra stripes on national tv?
What mother, sister, at that point would have jeopardized their child's, brother's chances by refusing to model? And I am sure they were asked to bring candid photos of their designer as a child. I really felt bad for Kayne to be shown as a fat child if he was blindsided by it.
But I have to admit that the mothers/sisters were exceptionally good sports. It's not surprising to me that my favourite designers, Laura, Uli, Michael, had my favourite mothers.
notevayas
damselfly
August 26, 2006 - 05:00 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I just find it curious that we (myself included) tend to forgive men when they are being aggressive/cunning/arrogant/competitive, but not so much the women.
I'm guilty of that. Not every woman has a man to fight for her or wants him to, and it's not fair how women have to disguise their ambition and play by a different set of rules. And when they do this, some people turn around and say they are being favored.
It must be confusing to women to wonder when they should wait for a man to open the door for them (so they will not seem pushy) and when they should race right through (so the door won't be slammed in their face).
notevayas
The worst part is the most guilty of judging women in that fashion is other women. I worked for a woman who was a big wig in a NY advertising agency and then left to run a local arts center...My direct bos was a man but she was his direct boss. What she put up with from him...bad behavior, dressing poorly, rude comments...in comparison to what she took from me (the slightest comment she looked for negativity) was ridiculous...But thats who we're as women and it's really sad...
swiss74
August 26, 2006 - 05:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I just find it curious that we (myself included) tend to forgive men when they are being aggressive/cunning/arrogant/competitive, but not so much the women.
I'm guilty of that. Not every woman has a man to fight for her or wants him to, and it's not fair how women have to disguise their ambition and play by a different set of rules. And when they do this, some people turn around and say they are being favored.
It must be confusing to women to wonder when they should wait for a man to open the door for them (so they will not seem pushy) and when they should race right through (so the door won't be slammed in their face).
notevayas
The worst part is the most guilty of judging women in that fashion is other women. I worked for a woman who was a big wig in a NY advertising agency and then left to run a local arts center...My direct bos was a man but she was his direct boss. What she put up with from him...bad behavior, dressing poorly, rude comments...in comparison to what she took from me (the slightest comment she looked for negativity) was ridiculous...But thats who we're as women and it's really sad...
I will comment of the door opening first.
In the North very few men hold the door or open the door for women, it has to do with the women's movement. Now in the South it is a totally different ball game. Men still open and hold the door open for women. Yes there are exceptions to the rules but on a whole that is just the way it is. That is in the workplace setting, now on social occasions, like a date. Men seem to do what their mothers taught them to do, hold open the door or open the door.
Second Women Supervisors and treatment of women vs men subordinates. My observations only. Men are on a whole treated better as subordinates than women. For some reason women supervisors seems to be intimidated by the male employee and treat them better and take more guff from them. I have worked for about 3 women and it is really almost humorous at the concessions they make. I only had one woman employer that treated both men and women equal. All I can say is it must be a gender thing. Women on a whole are taught from birth whether it is blatant or the reverse to be subservient to men. Even with the women's bid for equality in the workplace it remains the same. I will never forget when one of the women supervisors found out she was making less than the male employee who was under her. Now there was a scene and a half. Feathers flew everwhere.
Third clothes, I never saw much difference in the dress, both wore appropriate clothing.
Fourth, ambition. Most women are called everything under the sun when they become aggressive and demanding in the work place, while their male counterparts are considered go getters and great company employees. It is strange.
So basically I concur.
lakbuffalo
August 26, 2006 - 05:59 AM
Quote:
Quote:
One of the boards posted a link to an interview with Tim where he said that Daniel and Santino were the contenders - when out of nowhere, Nina started to talk up Chloe. Tim was SHOCKED!
On what grounds was Nina pushing Chloe over Daniel and Santino?
Good Morning MissOtis -
Here is the link to the Chicago Tribune Interview:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/en...ng_with_ti.html
In case there is a problem with the link: (But if you can get the link, read it ... its great!)
Tim: Can I tell you what happened there, with the [final] runway judgment?”
CT: Please!
Tim: “I was sitting with the Bravo legal department. We were listening to the dialogue, and can I just tell you, Debra Messing was terrific – boy, does she know clothes and how to talk about them. So we had Debra, Nina, Michael and Heidi. This runway deliberation went on for two hours. I was sitting with the legal department, and we were whispering, going ‘It’s Daniel, it’s Santino, it’s Daniel, it’s Santino.’
“About an hour and 40 minutes into this, Nina goes into this rhapsodic soliloquy about Chloe and her collection, and throws into it all of her successes during [the season], and how everything’s been memorable around. It was going to Daniel, and [Nina] turned everybody around to Chloe. It was the most remarkable thing I’ve ever seen.
“The legal people turn to me, kind of with incredulity and say, ‘It’s Chloe?’ And I said, ‘I trust nothing until it comes out of Heidi’s mouth.’ And it did! And I couldn’t believe it. I simply couldn’t believe it.
“I will tell you, and this goes to the integrity of the show, the producers and Bravo were in a state. And Frances Berwick, executive vice president of Bravo, could conceivably have stopped it, but she said, ‘It’s their decision.’ I just was … I kept saying, ‘How are you going to explain this to the audience? Anybody looking at that is going to think that’s crazy!’”
Carole
August 26, 2006 - 06:20 AM
I honestly think Jeffrey went out of his way to be polite to Angela's mom. I think it was more in his tone, and his remark for her to move away from his workspace, that offends many posters. He was gracious enough to say that "she looked cute" on the runway, and Angela's mom smiled and postured on the runway, so maybe all's well that ends well.
notevayas
August 26, 2006 - 06:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Chloe didn't seem to have anything to "say" with her clothes, and, later, sure enough, her runway had the "big shiny excess" that is the stereotypical look that the south
Hmmmmm. Bless your heart, but you are wrong about that.
Yes, bles their little heart, being uniformed about real life in Texas and going only by the stereotipical (spelling?) BS of legend, they made a judgement on all fashion in the south. Big , Huge mistake.
notevayas replies:
My quote was unfairly cut mid-sentence. Here is the entire paragraph with the sentence in question highlighted...
...
But that "dressmaker" comment had truth to it. Is Chloe concentrating on designing, or just hiking the prices on her same Lot 8 stuff she makes with her 7 sisters in Texas?
And it is true that Kara Janx's decoy runway show was my favorite, not only of season two, but of any season so far, with Santino's edgy romantic collection a close second.
Do you remember that during the judging of the "Makeover" challenge in season two, Kara Janx said that Chloe should be the one to go? I agreed with Kara, because Chloe didn't seem to have anything to "say" with her clothes, and, later, sure enough, her runway had the "big shiny excess" that is the stereotypical look that the south, if not Texas, is perhaps unfairly ridiculed for in the north. Her designs were not young or innovative like Karas, or edgy/sophisticated, and romantic, like Santinos..
I was pointing out the stereotype, not saying I believed it. Of course, I should have omitted the word perhaps..
Perhaps.
notevayas
Carole
August 26, 2006 - 06:41 AM
In the bonus videos you can really see a lot more of what took place that didn't make the editing. Angela for sure took her Mom into the ladies' room and I am sure they had a good chat about mean old Jeffrey. Although I think a woman of her age should not be so sensitive, Angela's mom also has arthritis and some other "issues" so she ended up being a good sport by just making it down the runway.
What on earth does age have to do with sensitivity. Buck it up after a certain age? There is NOTHING wrong with being insecure. I'm glad your life is so perfect, but please don't judge older women with insecurities. I bet you have insecurities too, you just hide them.
One of the first things we saw on the show was Angela's mom saying to Jeffrey, "no one has ever talked to me that way before". I believe you can take this in a lot of different ways. Many people take it as Jeffrey being rude to an older woman, and I respect that point. However, the reason I spoke about Angela's mother being insecure in the first place was due to that remark. I find it hard to believe that a woman of that age had never been spoken to in a rude manner. I believe that after a certain age, every person should be able to handle remarks like that with a certain amount of grace. Also, although I understand that the women were probably very tired after traveling, the last thing on earth I would do is cry on national television because someone had spoken rudely to me. Imagine, if you will, how any other mother would have handled Jeffrey. They would have laughed at/with him. I don't defend Jeffrey so much, but I do actually put most of the blame on Darlene for not having a little more of a sense of humour.
notevayas
August 26, 2006 - 06:45 AM
Quote:
notevayas, we sure could use some of your insightful posts about now.
LOL!
I am just another PRaddict and I'm getting over it.. Did you hear about the survivor show they are making racially segregated "tribes" on.. that goes to show you where the ratings game ends.. in the gutter.
And in the gutter is when addicts know they need help..
<<sigh>>
notevayas
Jazzie53-Cyberklutz
August 26, 2006 - 06:45 AM
Just jumping in for moment here...good morning all. I happened to be channel surfing late last night when part of the CNN Larry King segment was showing clips from the show. Jeffery is talking about how he sent such an awful outfit down the runway and he's still there. Speaks volumes on his attitude and arrogance. IMO....he sounds proud of screwing it to the show, producers, viewers. Truly adolescent behavior.
Jazzie
Carole
August 26, 2006 - 06:57 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Chloe didn't seem to have anything to "say" with her clothes, and, later, sure enough, her runway had the "big shiny excess" that is the stereotypical look that the south
Hmmmmm. Bless your heart, but you are wrong about that.
Yes, bles their little heart, being uniformed about real life in Texas and going only by the stereotipical (spelling?) BS of legend, they made a judgement on all fashion in the south. Big , Huge mistake.
notevayas replies:
My quote was unfairly cut mid-sentence. Here is the entire paragraph with the sentence in question highlighted...
...
But that "dressmaker" comment had truth to it. Is Chloe concentrating on designing, or just hiking the prices on her same Lot 8 stuff she makes with her 7 sisters in Texas?
And it is true that Kara Janx's decoy runway show was my favorite, not only of season two, but of any season so far, with Santino's edgy romantic collection a close second.
Do you remember that during the judging of the "Makeover" challenge in season two, Kara Janx said that Chloe should be the one to go? I agreed with Kara, because Chloe didn't seem to have anything to "say" with her clothes, and, later, sure enough, her runway had the "big shiny excess" that is the stereotypical look that the south, if not Texas, is perhaps unfairly ridiculed for in the north. Her designs were not young or innovative like Karas, or edgy/sophisticated, and romantic, like Santinos..
I was pointing out the stereotype, not saying I believed it. Of course, I should have omitted the word perhaps..
Perhaps.
notevayas
Apologies, you are quite correct. I took that out of context. My only excuse: if you can imagine one of those cartoon characters whose eyes zoom to 100X magnified, glomming on to that part of the sentence...then quackling like mad that the sky is falling...mea culpa.
notevayas
August 26, 2006 - 07:06 AM
Quote:
And does anyone else find it odd they keep pointing out how Michael is a thinker, like it's a surprise to them?
I get that shitake all the time.
But in the judges defense, the phrase, "He/She thought about it." is often used, especially by Nina Garcia.
I would say that in this challenge, Uli "thought" the most. I worry for her, that she is not "dramatic" enough to sate the producers. One misstep and .. auf the show.
notevayas
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.