charlotteb
September 11, 2006 - 12:23 PM
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**But just having our first year ani, of Katrina and living here and trying like hell to help rebuild this wonderful city, I know the pain that you went through by seeing 9/11 happen right before you eyes. Bless you, you silly old bear!!! Sorry Winnie the phoo referance. **
Or maybe it's just a happy coincidence as I actually do have a Winnie the Pooh tat on my chest, probably not the best place to put it because when the fur grew back I found I could hardly make it out. What was I thinking about?
LOL You and others on here make me laugh so hard.... Thank you BEAR, I hope you hade a wonderful meal the other night...oops I already know you did. But still today like I said my heart to you it is hard going through tragedy that is thrust opon us, But as humans we get by and just live if given the opportunity... Personally I was trans-fixed to the T.V. screen watching the horror that was shown to all of America on 9/11. Having gone trough Katrina I am watching the Sci-Fi channel watching old movies instead of the 9/11 news. I just think if I watched all of that no disrepect intended that I would just bust out crying. But on another note I enjoy your post as well as Ms. Otis, Brillke, Notevayas? Charolet and others we all share a Show PR we love with all the bickering fashoin etc. I'm a fan of TC too. I post and my apolgies for not having the etticate to say hello or goodbye, but y'all are extremely asstute in you observasions(Sorry spelling sucks and LOL I'm a College grad.) as well as entertainment. Thank you all.
Actor59,
Galveston dodged a bullet last year more than once. Having lived in New Orleans back in the stone age, I was glued to the TV for news watching the storm coverage. I knew the levees couldn't withstand a Category 5 and having driven the Gulf Coast I-10 I could only pray for the people living in the flat areas (no barrier). Our neighbors needed our help and I am proud to say Texans opened their hearts/doors and emptied their pocket books.
My neighbor is a NYC transplant that was there on 9/11, she said it was amazing to see the streets of neighborhoods lined with every day people waving the American Flag.
No matter what state we live in, we are all neighbors and as long as we remember that one thing, we will overcome tragedy and remain united.
C
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 12:34 PM
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ps.. unplug the electronics for a few days is my advice.. except your modem of course!
I do recommend the ABC dramatization of the events that led to 9/11. I watched the first part last night and the rest will be this evening. I have found it hard to keep track of all of the people involved, especially since Arabic names are difficult for me. This dramatization is based on the 9/11 report and is VERY critical of the US politicians, CIA, etc. The dramatization helps a little, for me, to keep a timeline in my head. I have read many of the books and magazines, watched TV incessantly, etc., trying to get a grasp on what the heck is going on. This sort of puts a lot of it in perspective. I am not going to get involved in something that doesn't belong on this board, but felt like a good recommendation for this program would not be out of line.
I too watched the 911 show last night. I am not trying to be a pain but it is very inaccurate and politically skewed. To see a very factual account of events leading up to 911 watch the shows on National Gegraphic there are at least 3 of them that takes you through events from before the first trade center bombing, the USS Cole, and then 911 and the aftermath. It is not a dramatization and is a true documentary.
Maybe I would not have noticed the glaring errors in that show last night if I had not just watched all three of the shows on National Geographic. The show last night did not even have all of the dates correct, had the names of airports and towns wrong on some things and some things that never happened at all.
I will not watch the second show tonight since I know it is not a true account of events.
that is what is wrong with "dramatizations". they can take licenses with the truth. The CBS News "9/11" with Robert De Nero was good, too. The National Geographic channel & the History Channel docs were great.
Food_Pro
September 11, 2006 - 12:37 PM
USA has been attacked twice. 12/7 and 9/11. I pray for peace every day.
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 12:39 PM
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Did you watch the docustory by the French crew? They just happened to be doing filming that day in New York and the footage is amazing.
I am not crazy about a "movie" or "mini series" on the events of this day as they take far too much leeway in facts.
I was supposed to be in a meeting in one of the towers that day and had cancelled and rescheduled. The person I was to have the meeting with was in the tower but managed to escape and walk across the bridge into New Jersey.
His accounts of that day just chill you to the bone.
You must have a powerful guardian angel!
actor59
September 11, 2006 - 12:41 PM
Thanks,
Yes Texas did open their arms and hearts to us. Being a native Texan, born and raised in Houston, I was never so proud in my life what Texas did with all of us....(Extremely pissed however of the NOLA peeps that took advantage and then more of the system. But that is life and not for this board. I found my girl friend broken down on the highway with her 22 yr.old son and 71 yr.old mother and got them to TX's safely 3 days after Katrina. We ended up in Bryan and eventually in Austin, but came back early Oct. ..... All I can say is we lived in the 9th ward still do but some of us survived. That is why my heart goes to Bear. I know that suffering of the soul and I thank the almighty that I can still watch PR and have a few too many PR Punch while I'm at it LOL.
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 12:50 PM
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it's now September 11th, 2006. 5 years ago I stood on a lower Manhattan street and watched America change forever.So I'm going to ask a simple favor of you all. Please don't be vicious today. On that day 5 years ago thousands of people lost their lives for the simple reason that they went to work. You shouldn't spread venom on this most sacred of days.
I was in my car, on my way to work, when the local 'oldies' dj had the tv in the studio on and told what was happening. he stayed on until 5 pm that afternoon, giving updates & news from all networks. I tried to log on to CNN.com and couldn't get through...too much traffic. After 2 hours, they sent every one home. Shut down the company. Sat in front of the tv until about 1am, crying, yelling, cursing. Just couldn't get those visuals out of my mind.
===================================
My daughter, who works for an energy company, was talking to one of their regular customers in the WTC. The line went dead and at the same time their CNN channel was broadcasting the news.... she glanced at the T.V. and just froze - then started shaking .........
omg. that is all I can think of. omg.
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 12:58 PM
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**But just having our first year ani, of Katrina and living here and trying like hell to help rebuild this wonderful city, I know the pain that you went through by seeing 9/11 happen right before you eyes. Bless you, you silly old bear!!! Sorry Winnie the phoo referance. **
Or maybe it's just a happy coincidence as I actually do have a Winnie the Pooh tat on my chest, probably not the best place to put it because when the fur grew back I found I could hardly make it out. What was I thinking about?
LOL You and others on here make me laugh so hard.... Thank you BEAR, I hope you hade a wonderful meal the other night...oops I already know you did. But still today like I said my heart to you it is hard going through tragedy that is thrust opon us, But as humans we get by and just live if given the opportunity... Personally I was trans-fixed to the T.V. screen watching the horror that was shown to all of America on 9/11. Having gone trough Katrina I am watching the Sci-Fi channel watching old movies instead of the 9/11 news. I just think if I watched all of that no disrepect intended that I would just bust out crying. But on another note I enjoy your post as well as Ms. Otis, Brillke, Notevayas? Charolet and others we all share a Show PR we love with all the bickering fashoin etc. I'm a fan of TC too. I post and my apolgies for not having the etticate to say hello or goodbye, but y'all are extremely asstute in you observasions(Sorry spelling sucks and LOL I'm a College grad.) as well as entertainment. Thank you all.
Actor59,
Galveston dodged a bullet last year more than once. Having lived in New Orleans back in the stone age, I was glued to the TV for news watching the storm coverage. I knew the levees couldn't withstand a Category 5 and having driven the Gulf Coast I-10 I could only pray for the people living in the flat areas (no barrier). Our neighbors needed our help and I am proud to say Texans opened their hearts/doors and emptied their pocket books.
My neighbor is a NYC transplant that was there on 9/11, she said it was amazing to see the streets of neighborhoods lined with every day people waving the American Flag.
No matter what state we live in, we are all neighbors and as long as we remember that one thing, we will overcome tragedy and remain united.
C
As many people have said, "It takes a village..." And it is so true. I can't survive without family & friends, Missouri can't survive without their neighboring states, and on down the line. We all are family in a great many degrees and we have to learn to help each other. Both parties are at fault...it goes back to even before the first Roosevelt. Our foreign policy has always been "Walk tall and carry a big stick" and we have made many enemies. I don't know that there is a way to get along with certain factions, but there are a lot of fences that we should mend. What I can't tolerate is our own leaders basically bullying citizens with fear tactics and lies.
mainer
September 11, 2006 - 01:02 PM
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lol hubby rooting for giants but really think it might be a lost cause but the yankees won......... yipee
Yeah -- I check every a.m. and give my DH a cheerful report on how far ahead of the Red Sox the Yankees are. We may have moved to Red Sox country but our loyalties remain with the Yankees. We try to root for the Giants but they don't help so the Patriots get our support as well. We do like winners! Hope Michael comes through as a big winner too --I really like him and his designs.
yankee fan living in sox country too . fly my yankee flag from my upstairs porch. also hopes michael wins. he has produced the best in terms of design on a regular basis.
of course this is my opinion n choice n anyone can differ with me as me with them
nyer in sox country
mainer
September 11, 2006 - 01:17 PM
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ps.. unplug the electronics for a few days is my advice.. except your modem of course!
I do recommend the ABC dramatization of the events that led to 9/11. I watched the first part last night and the rest will be this evening. I have found it hard to keep track of all of the people involved, especially since Arabic names are difficult for me. This dramatization is based on the 9/11 report and is VERY critical of the US politicians, CIA, etc. The dramatization helps a little, for me, to keep a timeline in my head. I have read many of the books and magazines, watched TV incessantly, etc., trying to get a grasp on what the heck is going on. This sort of puts a lot of it in perspective. I am not going to get involved in something that doesn't belong on this board, but felt like a good recommendation for this program would not be out of line.
I too watched the 911 show last night. I am not trying to be a pain but it is very inaccurate and politically skewed. To see a very factual account of events leading up to 911 watch the shows on National Gegraphic there are at least 3 of them that takes you through events from before the first trade center bombing, the USS Cole, and then 911 and the aftermath. It is not a dramatization and is a true documentary.
Maybe I would not have noticed the glaring errors in that show last night if I had not just watched all three of the shows on National Geographic. The show last night did not even have all of the dates correct, had the names of airports and towns wrong on some things and some things that never happened at all.
I will not watch the second show tonight since I know it is not a true account of events.
Actually I would have recomended the CBS documentary last night about the first firehouse on the scene and how they all came out alive. It was completely coincidental that they had a film crew with them making a documentary about a young man going from being a newbie to become a true fireman...little did they know it would happen in one day. It was amazing their footage and the personal interviews...I like it better than anything done from the political side because that day...our heros were us not them...they let us down, republicans and democrats...we picked ourselves up...it a good lesson
i have that on tape as my local cbs affiliate would not air it because of some of the language. that film has no political gain just pure facts as sad as they were. excellent in my opinion. wouldnt watch the abc one as it was produced by a friend of Rush Linbugh and read of too many of the ( so sorry we changed some of the facts).does not wnat to get into a political debate just voicing my opinion.
nyer
fashionmisfit
September 11, 2006 - 01:21 PM
I am glad that Vincent is gone, but I thought that he should have gone instead of Allison. I know that this is old news, but I though the remarks that she got from Heidi were very sexist. She said something to the affect that Allison, as a woman should have known a woman's body better because she is a woman, which may be true. But that lead me to believe that Vincent could get away with a bad design for a woman (which it was) because he was a man and wouldn't know any better. Allison and Jeffery should have won the challenge that Keith got kicked out. The only reason that Angela won was that Micheal and Laura talked her out of her bad choices and did the construction. The other point that I wanted to make, was that each challenge is a separate challenge with previous challenges not to be considered during judging. At least this is my understanding of the competition. When Robert was voted out, the comments were as if his other work had been considered as well as the current challenge. So with that in mind, along with the sexist view, I still think that Allison should have continued on. I am an admitted "fashion misfit" and I just kind of stumbled onto season 2 and got hooked even though I don't have a real interest in fashion, but I would have loved to have seen what Allison would have designed in some of the later challenges. I have to say that some women can be even more sexist against women than some men. I have worked in the predominantly male Civil Engineering field for 20 years, so I have seen it. Even my husband agrees with me.
mainer
September 11, 2006 - 01:27 PM
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You gotta have heart to go to the ball park and know it's probably not going to turn out well, yet I've seen about twenty Nationals games this year, and I've accompanied Drew to his hometown to see the Orioles about ten times. Have you any idea how much dismay is contained in that figure?
I agree with you on this one. My brother was a fan of the 49ers during their dynasty years and the Patriots were, to put it mildly, pitiful. Oy! I used to give him a hard time. How hard was it to be a 49ers fan back then? He tries to give it back to me now, but I told him it was a looooooong wait so I'm not buying it! Dues have been paid in full!
D
Tell me about that! I was a Red Sox fan in New York city during the period when it was practically unpatriotic to hate the Yankees. There I was in lower Manhattan in a Red Sox cap. On one hand it was awful but on the other it p*ssed off all the right people. Did the latter make the former any better. Um....not really, but it was close.
Then came 2004 and the Sox were down three games to zero and all my New York buddies called me to gloat.......again. I had enough, kinda took a leap of faith, and bet heavily. We all know the rest. Now if they could only take that lame ass movie, "Fever Pitch", back all would be right with the world.
I guess it's why I can take them tanking this year with a grain of salt. You love the Sox whether good or bad. The Red Sox nation is always there for you.
yankee fan linving in maine in sox country n wear my yankee clothes n hat all the time. there are a lot of closet yankee fans here. also my dogs name is Bambinl(as in the curse of) lol , new puppys name is mickey mantle, have a cat named J Torre and another Dimaggio.
born n raised within sight of yankee stadium n will always love them as u the sox.
praying for another subway series
dcjewbear
September 11, 2006 - 01:38 PM
Actually I would have recomended the CBS documentary last night about the first firehouse on the scene and how they all came out alive. It was completely coincidental that they had a film crew with them making a documentary about a young man going from being a newbie to become a true fireman...little did they know it would happen in one day. It was amazing their footage and the personal interviews...I like it better than anything done from the political side because that day...our heros were us not them...they let us down, republicans and democrats...we picked ourselves up...it a good lesson
i have that on tape as my local cbs affiliate would not air it because of some of the language. that film has no political gain just pure facts as sad as they were. excellent in my opinion. wouldnt watch the abc one as it was produced by a friend of Rush Linbugh and read of too many of the ( so sorry we changed some of the facts).does not wnat to get into a political debate just voicing my opinion.
nyer
I just saw a documentary on HBO about this whole thing called "Telling Nicolas". Below is the description:
**How do you tell a seven-year-old boy that he has just lost his mother in the World Trade Center tragedy? That is the heart-wrenching question faced by the family of Nicholas Lanza, whose mother Michele was among the victims of the terrorist attacks. Filmmaker James Ronald Whitney, who lived and worked near the towers, saw the missing flyer for Michele and decided to track down her family on Staten Island. This film marks Whitney's ten days with Nicholas--who is unaware of his mother's fate--and his family as they come to the heartbreaking realization that Michele isn't coming home...and that Nicholas has to be told. Their shock and escalating grief is contrasted with that of a Muslim family who lost their father that same day. **
It was a really very fine, very emotional film and I highly reccomend it . I think it ties in nicely with the whole "it takes a village" mind set.
damselfly
September 11, 2006 - 01:43 PM
I was in NYC when the plane went down in Jamaica Queens about 2 weeks later...I was staying with a man I was seeing at the time who lived just over the Manhattan bridge in Brooklyn. I was driving him into work and dropping him off on Canal St then leaving by way of the Holland tunnel (at the time they weren't letting anyone in that way for the trucks carrying debris to use but they were letting people out). It happened when I hit Canal. The city shut down everything, every tunnel, every bridge no one could get in or out. Everything froze. I looked around and it was like everything stopped moving...traffic, pedestrians, cops...and then the planes flew over. Military jets...I've have never seen anything like the city around me...everyone looked up and stopped breathing all at once. It was so amazing to me how injured this city was yet how prepared they were to do it again if they needed to...I was the last car out over the Washington bridge that morning...and it wasn't 9/11 but it was an emotion and feeling of unity I won't ever forget...
dcjewbear
September 11, 2006 - 01:52 PM
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I was in NYC when the plane went down in Jamaica Queens about 2 weeks later...I was staying with a man I was seeing at the time who lived just over the Manhattan bridge in Brooklyn. I was driving him into work and dropping him off on Canal St then leaving by way of the Holland tunnel (at the time they weren't letting anyone in that way for the trucks carrying debris to use but they were letting people out). It happened when I hit Canal. The city shut down everything, every tunnel, every bridge no one could get in or out. Everything froze. I looked around and it was like everything stopped moving...traffic, pedestrians, cops...and then the planes flew over. Military jets...I've have never seen anything like the city around me...everyone looked up and stopped breathing all at once. It was so amazing to me how injured this city was yet how prepared they were to do it again if they needed to...I was the last car out over the Washington bridge that morning...and it wasn't 9/11 but it was an emotion and feeling of unity I won't ever forget...
Yeah, I remember that. Isn't that odd? It happened so soon after the 11th and yet we don't think anything of it. People did lose their lives but I guess it just didn't resonate like the towers. In the end there wasn't a bad guy, just error.
But, boy, weren't we het up until we found out what really happened?
dcjewbear
September 11, 2006 - 01:59 PM
yankee fan linving in maine in sox country n wear my yankee clothes n hat all the time. there are a lot of closet yankee fans here. also my dogs name is Bambinl(as in the curse of) lol , new puppys name is mickey mantle, have a cat named J Torre and another Dimaggio.
born n raised within sight of yankee stadium n will always love them as u the sox.
praying for another subway series
You know, I can't stand them but afterwards I did buy one of those FDNYPD hats because the money went to the right place and those guys were great. I was one of those 70's smart ass kids who used to get crazy about "the man" but as you age it becomes easier to see what a hero really is. Those police and fire people were, and will always be, heroes.
lazylady
September 11, 2006 - 02:03 PM
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it's now September 11th, 2006. 5 years ago I stood on a lower Manhattan street and watched America change forever.So I'm going to ask a simple favor of you all. Please don't be vicious today. On that day 5 years ago thousands of people lost their lives for the simple reason that they went to work. You shouldn't spread venom on this most sacred of days.
I was in my car, on my way to work, when the local 'oldies' dj had the tv in the studio on and told what was happening. he stayed on until 5 pm that afternoon, giving updates & news from all networks. I tried to log on to CNN.com and couldn't get through...too much traffic. After 2 hours, they sent every one home. Shut down the company. Sat in front of the tv until about 1am, crying, yelling, cursing. Just couldn't get those visuals out of my mind.
===================================
My daughter, who works for an energy company, was talking to one of their regular customers in the WTC. The line went dead and at the same time their CNN channel was broadcasting the news.... she glanced at the T.V. and just froze - then started shaking .........
omg. that is all I can think of. omg.
She must have been in complete shock. I can't even imagine.
When the bombing happened in OK City I happened to notice the TV in the library at our law office and saw it said breaking news and a picture of a bombed building with smoke coming out. I ran to the other office and told the lady I worked with that something had happened. We went in and found it to be the federal building in OK City. One of her sons works for the IRS in that building and she just went completely white. Took us forever to get in touch with him. Thank heaven his son had a Dr''s appt that day and he had taken off to take him. Saved his life most likely.
So many horrific things happen in life these days and yet we keep on with our lives and try to honor those not so fortunate
Cindy1692
September 11, 2006 - 02:07 PM
I did not know anything was going on this day five years ago as I had overslept slightly, and did not turn the TV on as always. Not until I got to work, logged on to the National Library of Medicine website and got the message that they were closed due to the "terrorist attack" Found everyone grouped around the TV monitor in the building turned back to TV mode for the first time ever.
Now, first thing, I check the news, and hope we never get a repeat of that day.
Very hard to keep working that day and everything was so surreal. I was lucky enough not to have family or friends in NYC that day. I think the only reasons I tried to keep working that day was that and that I'm an ex Air Force brat. Rather go down doing my business as usual that sitting in fear waiting.
As to the furor over the ABC docudrama(emphasis on the drama), I'm just not going to watch and let the historians 50-100 years from now sort it all out. Personally, I blame the media and the political parties involved. It was a lot easier for both to focus our attention on some presidental sex scandal then to go in and find out "who is this Osama bin Ladin we sent a missle towards" (which was my outloud question to the TV)on the day the Monica scandal([expletive deleted]-hum)broke.
But then if you took the idea to anyone about a theory that terrorists were going to hijack multiple airliners, ram two into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and another into the White House backtracking first over PA, you would have been pronounced insane.
damselfly
September 11, 2006 - 02:14 PM
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I was in NYC when the plane went down in Jamaica Queens about 2 weeks later...I was staying with a man I was seeing at the time who lived just over the Manhattan bridge in Brooklyn. I was driving him into work and dropping him off on Canal St then leaving by way of the Holland tunnel (at the time they weren't letting anyone in that way for the trucks carrying debris to use but they were letting people out). It happened when I hit Canal. The city shut down everything, every tunnel, every bridge no one could get in or out. Everything froze. I looked around and it was like everything stopped moving...traffic, pedestrians, cops...and then the planes flew over. Military jets...I've have never seen anything like the city around me...everyone looked up and stopped breathing all at once. It was so amazing to me how injured this city was yet how prepared they were to do it again if they needed to...I was the last car out over the Washington bridge that morning...and it wasn't 9/11 but it was an emotion and feeling of unity I won't ever forget...
Yeah, I remember that. Isn't that odd? It happened so soon after the 11th and yet we don't think anything of it. People did lose their lives but I guess it just didn't resonate like the towers. In the end there wasn't a bad guy, just error.
But, boy, weren't we het up until we found out what really happened?
Oh yah...I think my mom didn't breath untill I showed up at her work here in PA...the other problem was I had never used the west side highway so when I got on it...I had no idea where I was going...
eyelikepr
September 11, 2006 - 02:31 PM
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Hey Notevayas,
What a memory you have!!! I can barely remember who won the challenges from this season or what each designed, and the sad part is that I do watch them more than once, or twice, or thrice. . .
IMHO your observations are spot on as they say.
D
I have the dvd set of Season II which is great. (Season I also) And I confess to a small and harmless crush on Santino. I'm all for tall guys with soulful eyes.
notevayas
How did you get it? How much did it cost?
Rosebud66
September 11, 2006 - 02:37 PM
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Hey Notevayas,
What a memory you have!!! I can barely remember who won the challenges from this season or what each designed, and the sad part is that I do watch them more than once, or twice, or thrice. . .
IMHO your observations are spot on as they say.
D
I have the dvd set of Season II which is great. (Season I also) And I confess to a small and harmless crush on Santino. I'm all for tall guys with soulful eyes.
notevayas
How did you get it? How much did it cost?
You can get the DVD's from both Bravo and Amazon, I got mine from Amazon but don't remember the price. $35.00??
I think someone mentioned Target has/had them when they first came out.
Carole
September 11, 2006 - 02:43 PM
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My daughter, who works for an energy company, was talking to one of their regular customers in the WTC. The line went dead and at the same time their CNN channel was broadcasting the news.... she glanced at the T.V. and just froze - then started shaking .........
My friend was late to work that morning. He was on the other side of the river, waiting for the ferry, and watched the first plane fly into his office. He lost alot of friends that day and still won't talk about it.
Legolass
September 11, 2006 - 02:44 PM
Short article in next week's TV Guide - Laura Bennett has four sons. They are Peik, 10, Truman, 7, Pierson, 4, and Larson, 3. She has an 18-year-old daughter Cleo, from her first marriage, who just started college. Her fifth son is due in November. She stated that all of her pregnancies were unplanned & that honestly she thinks that she kept trying for another girl. Her husband, Peter, is really here with the kids and they're doing it as a team.
Carole
September 11, 2006 - 02:53 PM
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I am glad that Vincent is gone, but I thought that he should have gone instead of Allison. I know that this is old news, but I though the remarks that she got from Heidi were very sexist. She said something to the affect that Allison, as a woman should have known a woman's body better because she is a woman, which may be true. But that lead me to believe that Vincent could get away with a bad design for a woman (which it was) because he was a man and wouldn't know any better. Allison and Jeffery should have won the challenge that Keith got kicked out. The only reason that Angela won was that Micheal and Laura talked her out of her bad choices and did the construction. The other point that I wanted to make, was that each challenge is a separate challenge with previous challenges not to be considered during judging. At least this is my understanding of the competition. When Robert was voted out, the comments were as if his other work had been considered as well as the current challenge. So with that in mind, along with the sexist view, I still think that Allison should have continued on. I am an admitted "fashion misfit" and I just kind of stumbled onto season 2 and got hooked even though I don't have a real interest in fashion, but I would have loved to have seen what Allison would have designed in some of the later challenges. I have to say that some women can be even more sexist against women than some men. I have worked in the predominantly male Civil Engineering field for 20 years, so I have seen it. Even my husband agrees with me.
Welcome to the board. You may find that at the moment many are posting on different topics, because we are almost talked out about PR - we are just in a holding mode until the next episode. But you are very welcome, and we do discuss all the episodes very thoroughly.
Carole
September 11, 2006 - 02:59 PM
But then if you took the idea to anyone about a theory that terrorists were going to hijack multiple airliners, ram two into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and another into the White House backtracking first over PA, you would have been pronounced insane.
Well in defense of the ABC docudrama they did point out very firmly that the 9/11 Commission said part of the blame lay in a "failure of imagination".
Carole
September 11, 2006 - 03:02 PM
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Short article in next week's TV Guide - Laura Bennett has four sons. They are Peik, 10, Truman, 7, Pierson, 4, and Larson, 3. She has an 18-year-old daughter Cleo, from her first marriage, who just started college. Her fifth son is due in November. She stated that all of her pregnancies were unplanned & that honestly she thinks that she kept trying for another girl. Her husband, Peter, is really here with the kids and they're doing it as a team.
She wants another girl so she can make clothes for her! I sew and only had a boy. But now I have a granddaughter, ha-ha!
Legolass
September 11, 2006 - 03:11 PM
Congratulations, Carole !!
brillke
September 11, 2006 - 03:15 PM
http://fourfour.typepad.com/fourfour/2006/..._exit.html#moreThe above link is an interview with Tim Gunn. Love this quote:
"What is your feeling about the direction of the show? Are you happy with how the show is put together and is it fair?
The show is brilliantly edited, it is brilliantly produced, and every time I see the episode -- even though I was part of it -- I marvel about how it was done. There’s no one who isn’t portrayed the way that they really are, and if anything -- I’ll be really blunt -- the editing is kind to most people. "
brillke
eyelikepr
September 11, 2006 - 03:15 PM
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Hey Notevayas,
What a memory you have!!! I can barely remember who won the challenges from this season or what each designed, and the sad part is that I do watch them more than once, or twice, or thrice. . .
IMHO your observations are spot on as they say.
D
I have the dvd set of Season II which is great. (Season I also) And I confess to a small and harmless crush on Santino. I'm all for tall guys with soulful eyes.
notevayas
How did you get it? How much did it cost?
You can get the DVD's from both Bravo and Amazon, I got mine from Amazon but don't remember the price. $35.00??
I think someone mentioned Target has/had them when they first came out.
thanks. i'll try and find one. i want to give it as a gift to my niece
brillke
September 11, 2006 - 03:18 PM
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Hey Notevayas,
What a memory you have!!! I can barely remember who won the challenges from this season or what each designed, and the sad part is that I do watch them more than once, or twice, or thrice. . .
IMHO your observations are spot on as they say.
D
I have the dvd set of Season II which is great. (Season I also) And I confess to a small and harmless crush on Santino. I'm all for tall guys with soulful eyes.
notevayas
How did you get it? How much did it cost?
You can get the DVD's from both Bravo and Amazon, I got mine from Amazon but don't remember the price. $35.00??
I think someone mentioned Target has/had them when they first came out.
thanks. i'll try and find one. i want to give it as a gift to my niece
You can get them on Ebay too.
brillke
eyelikepr
September 11, 2006 - 03:18 PM
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Short article in next week's TV Guide - Laura Bennett has four sons. They are Peik, 10, Truman, 7, Pierson, 4, and Larson, 3. She has an 18-year-old daughter Cleo, from her first marriage, who just started college. Her fifth son is due in November. She stated that all of her pregnancies were unplanned & that honestly she thinks that she kept trying for another girl. Her husband, Peter, is really here with the kids and they're doing it as a team.
I read in People or Enquirer that her husband is 60 yrs old.
brillke
September 11, 2006 - 03:23 PM
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But then if you took the idea to anyone about a theory that terrorists were going to hijack multiple airliners, ram two into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and another into the White House backtracking first over PA, you would have been pronounced insane.
Well in defense of the ABC docudrama they did point out very firmly that the 9/11 Commission said part of the blame lay in a "failure of imagination".
Both Frontline and Nova had 9/11 shows and they were very well done.
brillke
scrappyteri
September 11, 2006 - 03:34 PM
Just in case some of you are in need of a fashion fix:
http://www.olympusfashionweek.com/spring20...2007/intro.htmlIf you click on designers, many of them have videos of their shows.
Drums fingers and waits patiently for Wednesday.
notevayas
September 11, 2006 - 03:35 PM
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The talent isn't in the ability to sew, but in the designs. My sister has that talent, but has only used it in infant clothes. She created designs for preemie clothes long before Mother Care did it. Each outfit was an original, and amazing. Unfortunately, once Mother Care came up with ready made, my sister couldn't make enough to keep her business going. Anyone for couture preemie outfits?
The talent may be in the design, but couture is all about the artisans who put together the garment. I read a knowledgable poster on TWOP that posted that in order to qualify as a couture house to the French government, a designer has to employ 35 full time year round artisans.
Couture is all about the French government protecting an industry they see as a part of their heritage.
Forgive my ignorance, but I always thought that preemies were kept wrapped up snugly in a baby blanket to simulate the comfort of the womb with a little jersey cap. They might benifit from a sling so they can rest while hearing their mothers heartbeat, but do they really need couture?
notevayas
***CORRECTION***
I re-read the post on TWOP and a couture house in France is only required to employ 15 full time artisans. They have to create 35 couture garments a year and show twice a year, both day and evening wear..
He also says that "Prada, Versace, Balenciaga, Pucci, Gucci, and many other world famous names present at Ready to Wear shows like Olympus Fashion Week, but don't do haute couture lines even though they do some couture-like work. And Commes des Garcons and Vivienne Westwood do only ready to wear, but are as "out there" as anyone in haute couture."
Unlike me, this poster really seems to know fashion..
notevayas
KSboy
September 11, 2006 - 03:39 PM
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it's now September 11th, 2006. 5 years ago I stood on a lower Manhattan street and watched America change forever.So I'm going to ask a simple favor of you all. Please don't be vicious today. On that day 5 years ago thousands of people lost their lives for the simple reason that they went to work. You shouldn't spread venom on this most sacred of days.
Wow, a cheap shot. You've sunk to new lows.
It is a wonderful freedom, to be able to express oneself in any way one chooses, without fear of persecution or retribution.
This isn't a sacred day. It's a day. Something terrible happened on this day 5 years ago and we should never forget that, but only in terms of working toward making sure such a day never happens again. Nothing sacred about the daily struggle to maintain our freedoms and rights as citizens of the greatest country on earth.
And G_d bless you too.
Bear, thank you for your appropriate reminder, and your tactful response to nowvoyager. I must admit my response to her post was much like brillke's, but I restrained myself because I too am getting tired of the constant vitriole on these boards (and didn't want to add to it, even if I came up with an appropriate response that was half as eloquent as brillke's).
My own memory of 9/11 is also personal, but in a somewhat different way. My partner is a flight attendant for United. Fortunately, he was at home on the last day of his vacation rather than in the air that day, but he recognized a couple of the murdered United flight attendants as colleagues he had flown with (though they were not among his close friends). 9/11 also struck home because much of the information that later came out made it appear that the flight attendants were the first persons butchered by the terrorists that day. The first day my partner went back to work after the skies were reopened we were both nervous wrecks. For the last five years, every trip he has worked he has had to deal with countless changes that have changed his job from one he loved to one he simply endures until he can retire.
And yes, he got up this morning at 4:00 a.m. to work a flight, just like he always does. And I was nervous all day until I knew that his flight for the day was back on safe, firm ground.
I've not been on this board much for the past several days because I've been sick and have not had the energy to deal with the negativity. Today, I'm feeling much better, but for a far different reason I did not want to deal with negative energy.
Thank you for being a light on what will always be a dark, sacred day for me, as I'm sure it will always be for my partner and all our friends in the airline industry.
lazylady
September 11, 2006 - 03:52 PM
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But then if you took the idea to anyone about a theory that terrorists were going to hijack multiple airliners, ram two into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and another into the White House backtracking first over PA, you would have been pronounced insane.
Well in defense of the ABC docudrama they did point out very firmly that the 9/11 Commission said part of the blame lay in a "failure of imagination".
I don't think there is a defense for ABC on this one. They blew it. I even wrote a long email to them today setting out just the mistakes I saw in as a caual viewer while doing other things while my husand watched it. There is no excuse for airing something like that.
Off my soap box now
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 03:53 PM
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it's now September 11th, 2006. 5 years ago I stood on a lower Manhattan street and watched America change forever.So I'm going to ask a simple favor of you all. Please don't be vicious today. On that day 5 years ago thousands of people lost their lives for the simple reason that they went to work. You shouldn't spread venom on this most sacred of days.
Wow, a cheap shot. You've sunk to new lows.
It is a wonderful freedom, to be able to express oneself in any way one chooses, without fear of persecution or retribution.
This isn't a sacred day. It's a day. Something terrible happened on this day 5 years ago and we should never forget that, but only in terms of working toward making sure such a day never happens again. Nothing sacred about the daily struggle to maintain our freedoms and rights as citizens of the greatest country on earth.
And G_d bless you too.
Bear, thank you for your appropriate reminder, and your tactful response to nowvoyager. I must admit my response to her post was much like brillke's, but I restrained myself because I too am getting tired of the constant vitriole on these boards (and didn't want to add to it, even if I came up with an appropriate response that was half as eloquent as brillke's).
My own memory of 9/11 is also personal, but in a somewhat different way. My partner is a flight attendant for United. Fortunately, he was at home on the last day of his vacation rather than in the air that day, but he recognized a couple of the murdered United flight attendants as colleagues he had flown with (though they were not among his close friends). 9/11 also struck home because much of the information that later came out made it appear that the flight attendants were the first persons butchered by the terrorists that day. The first day my partner went back to work after the skies were reopened we were both nervous wrecks. For the last five years, every trip he has worked he has had to deal with countless changes that have changed his job from one he loved to one he simply endures until he can retire.
And yes, he got up this morning at 4:00 a.m. to work a flight, just like he always does. And I was nervous all day until I knew that his flight for the day was back on safe, firm ground.
I've not been on this board much for the past several days because I've been sick and have not had the energy to deal with the negativity. Today, I'm feeling much better, but for a far different reason I did not want to deal with negative energy.
Thank you for being a light on what will always be a dark, sacred day for me, as I'm sure it will always be for my partner and all our friends in the airline industry.
Not all of us are ...oh, wait. I forgot...I am in ignore subject/person mode concerning that area.
It is a hard day to get through, more so if you knew someone who died or, in your case, have reason to worry about the safety of someone you love. We just need to remember the personal lessons from that day...stay close to your family & friends because each day could be your last. There are more important things than silly arguments or petty disagreements.
KSboy
September 11, 2006 - 04:28 PM
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It is a hard day to get through, more so if you knew someone who died or, in your case, have reason to worry about the safety of someone you love. We just need to remember the personal lessons from that day...stay close to your family & friends because each day could be your last. There are more important things than silly arguments or petty disagreements.
Thanks for your thought, sisterzip. You are so right about 9/11 being a reminder of what are the truly important things in life.
Since you and I seem to be the only two folks on the boards right now, I'll add one other, OT memory that is indirectly related to 9/11. This is not about the day itself, but a lesson I try to remember about judging when it is best to keep one's mouth shut.
A few years after 9/11, my partner and I were on a flight from San Francisco to Baltimore, flying space-available as airline employees and their family members are able to do. He had gotten a seat near the front of the coach section. I had a seat further back in coach right next to the emergency exit.
While flying over my home state, the pilot came on the loudspeaker to announce that we would be making an emergency landing in Kansas City because one of the two plane engines had failed. He assured us that the plane could safely land with only one engine working, and my partner had told me that before as well. However, knowing something intellectually and believing it while face to face with the situation are two completely different things, believe you me!
My first thought was to ding for a working flight attendant to let her know that my partner (a UAL flight attendant like her) was seated a few rows up, and perhaps he and I should change places. But I knew I couldn't.
Why?, you might ask (unless I've totally bored you by now). In the center seat next to me was a woman who had already told me that she had a deathly fear of flying and had to be thoroughly drugged to get on that plane. Understandably, her drugs started being put to the test as soon as the pilot made his announcement, and I was afraid that my giving up my seat so a professional flight attendant could be next to the emergency door might really set her off. So, instead, I just read that plastic card more carefully than I every had in my life.
Now, to the 9/11-related lesson of my story -- In the aisle seat on the other side of the woman was a man who automatically started talking about how this was the 3rd time he would ever be in the KC airport, and the first 2 times had been emergency landings as well. In fact, the 2nd time had been on 9/11, when he was flying from Washington to the West Coast and his plane had made its quick landing there. That was enough to get the nervous woman shaking.
But then he made it worse. He started talking about how he was supposed to have been on the flight that crashed into the Pentagon that day, but at the last minute he had decided to take an earlier flight out of Washington Dulles -- without telling anyone! He went on and on about how he landed in KC without ever thinking that he wife and his work colleagues all would have thought he had already been killed in the Pentagon attack. Then, how people freaked out when he finally called both his wife and his office to let them know he was OK.
By this time, I felt like I should buzz the flight attendant and see if there was a psychiatrist who could change seats with me to keep this woman next to me from going completely bonkers.
Since then, I try to think a little bit more carefully whether it's better to share my own experiences or just keep my mouth shut.
Anyone who made it this far, thanks for bearing with me, and I hope this wasn't one of those occasions when I should have just kept my mouth/fingers shut.
cleeg
September 11, 2006 - 04:44 PM
KSboy - thanks for the story. It's nice to have one give me a grin with such a serious day today. I'm sure I've opened my mouth before when I should have kept it shut!
Nothing to do with 9/11 but one of those maybe I should have kept my mouth shut moments - about 10 years ago my husband was stationed aboard an aircraft carrier. His "job" can be done on a carrier as ship's company or with a squadron flying a shore based plane. One family had just come to the ship as ship's company and had previously been with a squadron. Several of us wives were having a get together and this particular wife mentioned she was already planning the homecoming. Mind you the ship had just left for the 6 month deployment. She mentioned reservations at a Bed & Breakfast. I told her she had better cancel the reservations until closer to homecoming. She asked why since we knew when they were coming home. Well, with the squadron you have a pretty good idea of the date, although it can change. With a carrier it fluctuates much, much more on the actual homecoming date. I told her as much and she was on the verge of tears, shaking her head and saying - "but he told me..." I felt about 2" tall and appologized, but told her that the schedule is much more erratic with a carrier than a squadron. On some things I'm just one of those "tell it like it is" people. I need an edit button before I speak sometimes. LOL
CLee
IMoverit
September 11, 2006 - 04:46 PM
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Gee uhhmmm, so why do we think Tim says "Oh Jesus"?
For me, the previews have created much angst for my already anxiety ridden epigastric region. Does anyone think Laura drops out?
I think Tim's first gander of the state of Laura's stomach, as seen in the previews would be enough to elicit an "Oh, Jesus".
brillke
September 11, 2006 - 05:01 PM
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Gee uhhmmm, so why do we think Tim says "Oh Jesus"?
For me, the previews have created much angst for my already anxiety ridden epigastric region. Does anyone think Laura drops out?
I think Tim's first gander of the state of Laura's stomach, as seen in the previews would be enough to elicit an "Oh, Jesus".
Laura seemed miserable in Paris and as I understand it was increbibly hot. Now they are back in NY and I wonder if they allowed her to go for maternity clothes. I bet the reason we saw her with her shirt pulled over her belly is the heat and it just doesnt fit. I think the belly is beautiful but Id assume she would be more comfortable with clothes that fit.
brillke
IMoverit
September 11, 2006 - 05:01 PM
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there are a lot of closet yankee fans here. (in Maine I gather)
praying for another subway series
There are a lot of out of the closet Red Sox fans in N.Y.C. also... The Upper West sde Amsterdam Ave. bars were about 40/60 for the Red Sox to the chagrin of a number of pinstripers. In the Riviera Lounge downtown it is seriously Red Sox nation. I was for the Mets the year they won and have been for a long time... but now it's "Let's Go Mets". I am sure we are bothering a number of readers who are trying to avoid any reference to baseball.
KSboy
September 11, 2006 - 05:07 PM
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By the way, we had a problem getting gas on the way home. I have a list of gas stations that had hiked gas to $6 and above a gallon as we made that drive. I will never stop at any of them again.
lazylady, perhaps the only good thing about 9/11 is the sense of all-in-this-together, loving-family partnership that the attacks brought out in almost all Americans, as well as people around the world.
One of the tragedies was that the day also brought out the worst in a few fellow Americans, such as those gas station attendants who obviously spiked their prices just to capitalize on a bad situation. It's hard to forget those sad excuses for human breath, but I remind myself that it is far more rewarding to remember all the good we saw evidenced in each other.
The number 1 tragedy of 9/11 was the massive loss of life that took place that day. To me, the number 2 tragedy is that the unity we all felt that day vanished so completely and bitterly so quickly thereafter.
I'm sorry. With my partner in Calfornia in a hotel after his flights today, I'm sitting here alone just remembering that day. I'll never forget leaving work on 9/11 and walking by a television set that showed all 535 members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, standing together on the Capital steps singing "God Bless America." The Mormon Tabernacle Choir they were not, but I swear it was the most moving, goosebump-causing rendition of that anthem I have ever heard. I so wish that we could get back to that brief moment of national unity again. I just pray that it doesn't take another national disaster for it to happen.
IMoverit
September 11, 2006 - 05:08 PM
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Gee uhhmmm, so why do we think Tim says "Oh Jesus"?
For me, the previews have created much angst for my already anxiety ridden epigastric region. Does anyone think Laura drops out?
I think Tim's first gander of the state of Laura's stomach, as seen in the previews would be enough to elicit an "Oh, Jesus".
Laura seemed miserable in Paris and as I understand it was increbibly hot. Now they are back in NY and I wonder if they allowed her to go for maternity clothes. I bet the reason we saw her with her shirt pulled over her belly is the heat and it just doesnt fit. I think the belly is beautiful but Id assume she would be more comfortable with clothes that fit.
brillke
I think the "oh Jesus" was because he had no idea the pregnancy was so far along.... And she was wearing one of those tummy synchers for the Paris challenge... She may in fact be trying to get the boot... At the very least I am sure she wants and needs to see her kids...
damselfly
September 11, 2006 - 05:11 PM
On the OT...OT of 9/11 too...I have a sister who panics at everything, especailly health related. She struggles with internalizing things and not putting them out there is the form of a question..."Does this look normal?" "My head is feeling this way...What do you think that means?" etc. I always thought she was a pain and needed attention. Now she has a little girl (2 years) and when my family got together this summer I watched how that behavior affected her...now everthing her daughter does is followed with "Mommy?" sounding like "is this ok...am I ok...are you ok" And I have a child and if I learned anything from that it how intuative children are and how while we don't want to shelter them completely it is our responsibility to keep fear under control and that goes for our children and others around us...I've taken that lesson and applied it to the people who I live in this world with..fear, anxiety, and "snarky"-ness is contagious...it starts with each of us...god that sounds like a lecture...lol...I'm sorry if my soapbox seems tall tonight...spiked punch sounds good after today's appropriate serious nature...
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 05:14 PM
No, actually it was a great story. I had to laugh, though. It does remind me that I have to watch who & how in depth I tell people about my hysterectomy. It really freaks people out, especially those who are about to have one. (I know, nowhere near the same, but instead of just an overnight stay, I was in the hospital 9 days and almost had to have another surgery. long story, but funny...kinda...now.)
After, literally, the dust settled, I found it very inspirational all of the small stories...the random acts of kindness that were displayed in the days just after 9/11. People opening their homes to the passengers on the grounded planes; the food, laundry service, and small things that people did without thinking. Just makes me tear up thinking about it.
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 05:17 PM
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By the way, we had a problem getting gas on the way home. I have a list of gas stations that had hiked gas to $6 and above a gallon as we made that drive. I will never stop at any of them again.
lazylady, perhaps the only good thing about 9/11 is the sense of all-in-this-together, loving-family partnership that the attacks brought out in almost all Americans, as well as people around the world.
One of the tragedies was that the day also brought out the worst in a few fellow Americans, such as those gas station attendants who obviously spiked their prices just to capitalize on a bad situation. It's hard to forget those sad excuses for human breath, but I remind myself that it is far more rewarding to remember all the good we saw evidenced in each other.
The number 1 tragedy of 9/11 was the massive loss of life that took place that day. To me, the number 2 tragedy is that the unity we all felt that day vanished so completely and bitterly so quickly thereafter.
I'm sorry. With my partner in Calfornia in a hotel after his flights today, I'm sitting here alone just remembering that day. I'll never forget leaving work on 9/11 and walking by a television set that showed all 535 members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, standing together on the Capital steps singing "God Bless America." The Mormon Tabernacle Choir they were not, but I swear it was the most moving, goosebump-causing rendition of that anthem I have ever heard. I so wish that we could get back to that brief moment of national unity again. I just pray that it doesn't take another national disaster for it to happen.
Amen!
lazylady
September 11, 2006 - 05:17 PM
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By the way, we had a problem getting gas on the way home. I have a list of gas stations that had hiked gas to $6 and above a gallon as we made that drive. I will never stop at any of them again.
lazylady, perhaps the only good thing about 9/11 is the sense of all-in-this-together, loving-family partnership that the attacks brought out in almost all Americans, as well as people around the world.
One of the tragedies was that the day also brought out the worst in a few fellow Americans, such as those gas station attendants who obviously spiked their prices just to capitalize on a bad situation. It's hard to forget those sad excuses for human breath, but I remind myself that it is far more rewarding to remember all the good we saw evidenced in each other.
The number 1 tragedy of 9/11 was the massive loss of life that took place that day. To me, the number 2 tragedy is that the unity we all felt that day vanished so completely and bitterly so quickly thereafter.
I'm sorry. With my partner in Calfornia in a hotel after his flights today, I'm sitting here alone just remembering that day. I'll never forget leaving work on 9/11 and walking by a television set that showed all 535 members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, standing together on the Capital steps singing "God Bless America." The Mormon Tabernacle Choir they were not, but I swear it was the most moving, goosebump-causing rendition of that anthem I have ever heard. I so wish that we could get back to that brief moment of national unity again. I just pray that it doesn't take another national disaster for it to happen.
I fear it will take something like 911 to bring us together again. You are correct that all of th petty differences of policitians, political parties, and even civilians have taken over our lives again.
I sit here and type this as I listen to the President as he speaks, after saying that it will not be a polictical speach, it is nothing but a polilcal speach. How sad.
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 05:19 PM
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By the way, we had a problem getting gas on the way home. I have a list of gas stations that had hiked gas to $6 and above a gallon as we made that drive. I will never stop at any of them again.
lazylady, perhaps the only good thing about 9/11 is the sense of all-in-this-together, loving-family partnership that the attacks brought out in almost all Americans, as well as people around the world.
One of the tragedies was that the day also brought out the worst in a few fellow Americans, such as those gas station attendants who obviously spiked their prices just to capitalize on a bad situation. It's hard to forget those sad excuses for human breath, but I remind myself that it is far more rewarding to remember all the good we saw evidenced in each other.
The number 1 tragedy of 9/11 was the massive loss of life that took place that day. To me, the number 2 tragedy is that the unity we all felt that day vanished so completely and bitterly so quickly thereafter.
I'm sorry. With my partner in Calfornia in a hotel after his flights today, I'm sitting here alone just remembering that day. I'll never forget leaving work on 9/11 and walking by a television set that showed all 535 members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, standing together on the Capital steps singing "God Bless America." The Mormon Tabernacle Choir they were not, but I swear it was the most moving, goosebump-causing rendition of that anthem I have ever heard. I so wish that we could get back to that brief moment of national unity again. I just pray that it doesn't take another national disaster for it to happen.
I fear it will take something like 911 to bring us together again. You are correct that all of th petty differences of policitians, political parties, and even civilians have taken over our lives again.
I sit here and type this as I listen to the President as he speaks, after saying that it will not be a polictical speach, it is nothing but a polilcal speach. How sad.
And all the media shoves down our throats is why we haven't seen "TomKat's baby" yet. Who cares?
SisterZip73
September 11, 2006 - 05:20 PM
Well, my work day is finally done. On my way home!
Be back in a while.
lazylady
September 11, 2006 - 05:25 PM
And all the media shoves down our throats is why we haven't seen "TomKat's baby" yet. Who cares?
I know, I do not care about that, Paris Hilton or any of the other "media" queens and princesses or is that princi lol.
A friend of mine calls them as she sees them media [expletive deleted].
I got so sick of hearing about Brad and Angelina, Tom and Katy, the babies, also Camilla and the Prince. They don't live a normal life as the rest of us do.
Some day, probably not in my lifetime, we will know the real truth about what happened before 911 and after.
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