jace007
January 18, 2007 - 10:58 AM
This is the simplest explaination, which we know according to Occam's razor, tends to be the correct one.
So whether its right or wrong is irrelvant. I'd love to see the look on you mug if this happened to you. I would probably lmao justing at the poetic justice being served to someone so deserving. Here's what I think of your Occam's razor. "For example, atheists often apply Occam's razor in arguing against the existence of God on the grounds that God is an unnecessary hypothesis. . "
KariAna
January 18, 2007 - 10:59 AM
NO ONE deserves what Cliff did to Marcel.
As far as the way people continue to attack
Marcel, you are wrong. Many times when one
person begins to pick on someone who is a bit
different as Marcel is different the dye is cast.
No longer is the truth necessary. The gang bully
will be born as one by one people begin to decide
that the individual who is different has no redeeming
qualities. Anything the individual does is wrong. People
will decide that the individual being bullied is bad and
deserves whatever he gets. The seven sin episode is
a perfect example. Just before Marcel is going to take
his plates into the dining room someone tells them to
stop. Marcel hears this off camera person and says in
a louder voice to stop. Suddenly, what Marcel did was
rude. He had been directed by whomever off camera and
reiterated what he was told to do. It is percieved by the
bully pulpit that he was rude and should apologize to
Betty. Marcel did nothing wrong. Another example
that indeed this is bully perceptions goes back to the
firehouse episode. When Marcel is taunting Betty as
a retaliation for her yelling at him because he is bummed
that the friers were cold Betty says she hears a gnat. Fast
forward to the episode where Sam begins saying that
Marcel is like a gnat in his ear and that he is always being
a gnat in someone's ear. These are all connected. Marcel
was right. The group decided that he, Marcel, was the one
to be bullied so he is it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you ever think that maybe there is a reason everyone hates Marcel? It's prolly not because they fear his foams either. My guess is that he's a major [expletive deleted] and deserves most if not all of what he gets from the others.
This is the simplest explaination, which we know according to Occam's razor, tends to be the correct one.
JUSTMEAOD
January 18, 2007 - 11:01 AM
Quote:
Liddy - I see where you are coming from. I only watched the episode onces so my opinions are based on my initial reactions. I recall clearly seeing Cliff and Sam in the video and hearing Ilan. I do not recall hearing Elia or seeing her in the shots. Therefore, I did not include her in my comments. However, if Elia did see what was going on and did not take any action, than she too is just as guilty in the deplorable actions against Marcel as Sam or Ilan would be in my book.
WELL SOUNDED LIKE ELIA WAS OFF IN A ROOM SOMEWHERE
ILAN WAS HOLDING THE CAM
SAM WAS ON THE COUCH
AND CLIFF WAS ON MARCEL
DID YOU LIKE SAM'S CLIP
"WELL THAT'S WHEN THINGS GOT OUT OF HAND"
YEAH RIGHT
THERE WAS A SHOW COUPLE OF YEARS AGO
WHERE ONE CONTESTANT SLAPPED ANOTHER
SAME RESULT
SO THE QUESTION LAY
WHAT DID THEY THINK WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY
ATTACKED ANOTHER CONTESTANT?
SHRUG
NONE HAVE MY SUPPORT
I THINK THE SHOW HAS TAKEN A TURN FOR THE WORST
ILAN HAS BEEN ABLE TO TURN ELIA AGAINST MARCEL
AND SAM
WELL HAS NEVER BEEN A FRIEND TO HIM
WHICH TIES INTO THE NEXT EPISODE
WHERE IT APPEARS MARCEL IS THROWN UNDER THE BUS
BY ELIA
LOOKS LIKE TOM GETS UPSET AT ONE OF THE OTHER
THREE AS HE REAMS SOMEONE
ABOUT HOW IT ISN'T HOW YOU ACT IN THE KITCHEN
ITS A COOKING SHOW
SOMETHING LIKE THAT
SO COINTOSS
BALD HEADS OR RAT TAIL
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
SoonersRock
January 18, 2007 - 11:02 AM
If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago.
jace007
January 18, 2007 - 11:04 AM
Quote:
Isn't it funny, the people who bash these chefs for being mean, and making fun of people, are themselves the most inconsiderate, mean, hateful, loathsome people who make fun of others for expressing an opinion. You have no right to judge others as you yourself have demonstrated that you are beneath all of them as a human being.
Talk about the show, not about other posters. Grow Up.
Damn the irony. Now I am equally guilty of voicing my opinion. I apologize to the gal, with poor taste and cannot discern from right or wrong and thinks of only herself, who thinks that Ilan looks hot from his shaven head. There! thats the closest of an apology you're gonna get from me.
JUSTMEAOD
January 18, 2007 - 11:05 AM
Quote:
Who was holding the camera in that scene with Marcel/Cliff?
SEEMS LIKE IT WAS ILAN
HIS VOICE IS THE CLEAREST
BUT HE WAS NO WHERE TO BE SEEN
THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION THOUGH
AND YOU KNOW HOW THAT GOES;)
I THINK GAIL SAID IT WAS ILAN TOO IN HER BLOG
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
meimeikitty
January 18, 2007 - 11:06 AM
Jumping in to say I am now actively rooting for Marcel (even though I believe Sam will probably win it).
Why? Not because everyone picks on him. Not because Cliff throttled him in his sleep. Because he made me lmao in last night's episode. When Padma said to the chefs, "Didn't anyone tell Cliff to stop last night?" Marcel said with a wry smile, "I did." That was funny! For him to have a good attitude and a decent sense of humor after what was done to him shows a good deal of character. Plus he was very gracious in accepting Cliff's apology. Plus he didn't run crying to the producers when he was attacked (and yes, I consider it an attack). Bravo Marcel!
When the show started I was rooting for Cliff. I can't believe he messed up this chance of a lifetime by this stupid prank. True, he probably would have been asked to leave this episode anyway, but at least he would have gone out remembered as a worthy contestant rather than a bully. Yick.
JUSTMEAOD
January 18, 2007 - 11:10 AM
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Oh silly.....That wasn't raw chix..That was raw cat.
It'll do it evey time....lolololol
YIKES KRISTI
WHERES MC AND MEI MEI???????
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
Here is me. I'm still in shock over last night's episode. Wow.
MORNING MEI MEI
YOU COUNT YOUR PAWS?????
WHAT SHOCKED YOU THE MOST????
I GUESS WITH ALL THE HYPE
I FOUND IT NOT SO SHOCKING
PERHAPS MORE
REVEALING
BECAUSE THAT ELIA
LOOKED GOOD WITHOUT HER LOCKS
THE ONLY SHOCK
WAS WHEN SHE TOOK OFF HER
WIG O8~~~~~~~~~
I SWEAR I NEVER LAUGHED SO HARD IN MY LIFE LOL
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
meimeikitty
January 18, 2007 - 11:18 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Oh silly.....That wasn't raw chix..That was raw cat.
It'll do it evey time....lolololol
YIKES KRISTI
WHERES MC AND MEI MEI???????
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
Here is me. I'm still in shock over last night's episode. Wow.
MORNING MEI MEI
YOU COUNT YOUR PAWS?????
WHAT SHOCKED YOU THE MOST????
I GUESS WITH ALL THE HYPE
I FOUND IT NOT SO SHOCKING
PERHAPS MORE
REVEALING
BECAUSE THAT ELIA
LOOKED GOOD WITHOUT HER LOCKS
THE ONLY SHOCK
WAS WHEN SHE TOOK OFF HER
WIG O8~~~~~~~~~
I SWEAR I NEVER LAUGHED SO HARD IN MY LIFE LOL
TAKE CARE OVER THERE
ALOHA
HAVE FUN
I guess I didn't expect the whole thing to be quite so nasty. I know the whole board has been speculating about what was going to happen. I figured they'd run up behind Marcel and shave a piece of his hair. I didn't think Cliff would hold him down like he did...and for so long!
I've got all my paws! I did shave my head once years ago--it was all the way down to my waist and I got tired of it and zipped it off. Looked really cool and was wonderful in the shower!
possum
January 18, 2007 - 11:22 AM
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As for Marcel, he should have been booted out when he tried to make Betty lose when she was cooking (when she had nothing to do with the fryer cooling down.)
Last time I checked, just about the whole world agreed that betty ( that [expletive deleted] ) had to go, and we all rejoiced when her sorry ass got axed. Maybe her nasty attitude reminds you of yourself.
So much for posting an opinion here without being subjected to personal judgments.
And whether Betty deserved to go or not, Marcel's behavior in that instance was childish and reprehensible. Just because he's been turned into a victim now by Cliff does make his earlier behavior acceptable.
bular
January 18, 2007 - 11:27 AM
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If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago. [/quote}
Real Life, TV Show - It matters not. Their actions would be equally wrong in either situation.
I work in conflict resolution and one thing is constant - there will always be people you encounter in life that you do not get along with (actually its usually because they emulate a quality you do not like in yourself so you act more violently to it - but I won't go into all that). In the end, you have to learn how to deal with those people - either by addressing the issue or changing how you react to it.
You can't change others. You can only change yourself and how you respond to them!
possum
January 18, 2007 - 11:29 AM
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Quote:
If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago. [/quote}
Real Life, TV Show - It matters not. Their actions would be equally wrong in either situation.
I work in conflict resolution and one thing is constant - there will always be people you encounter in life that you do not get along with (actually its usually because they emulate a quality you do not like in yourself so you act more violently to it - but I won't go into all that). In the end, you have to learn how to deal with those people - either by addressing the issue or changing how you react to it.
You can't change others. You can only change yourself and how you respond to them!
Very well said.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:31 AM
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Everyone is getting on the men about this episode of abuse, but what about Elia? All through this competition, she has failed to step up. Sure, she is nice to everyone, but does she ever do the right thing? She should have never let Mia leave the show on her account. Instead, she just stood there rubbing the bridge of her nose like she always does when there is a any sort of confrontation. Did she ever tell the others to lay off Marcel? Which is worse....a sin of commission or omission?
I can't remember the name of the episode, but it was the one at the fire station--Elia told Marcel that she would always stand up for him. But, last night when Cliff was holding him down and llan called for her, she said "I can't right now!" She may not have wanted to be a part of shaving his head, but she also didn't want to be a part of standing up for him either.
Tom C, in his blog, also points out that she knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.
In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
SoonersRock
January 18, 2007 - 11:33 AM
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Quote:
If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago.
Real Life, TV Show - It matters not. Their actions would be equally wrong in either situation.
I work in conflict resolution and one thing is constant - there will always be people you encounter in life that you do not get along with (actually its usually because they emulate a quality you do not like in yourself so you act more violently to it - but I won't go into all that). In the end, you have to learn how to deal with those people - either by addressing the issue or changing how you react to it.
You can't change others. You can only change yourself and how you respond to them!
Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:37 AM
Quote:
Sizzler, Fred Goldman did not go "around the law". It is part of that law that if you lose in criminal court you can absolutely sue in civil court (where that butcher Simpson was found responsible for the two murders.)
Why did Padma call Elia an idiot? For the attack on Marcel or for shaving her head? I think Elia looks great with a shaved head (I did that once myself -- sure made showering faster!)
As for Marcel, he should have been booted out when he tried to make Betty lose when she was cooking (when she had nothing to do with the fryer cooling down.)
Marcel's response to Cheater Betty's own hateful comments previously to him can in no way reach the level of what he has endured from the TC bully-gang.
Tom C in his blog said that he wanted to send everyone home but Marcel and have Marcel win by default, but the producers overruled him. That's too bad because none of the bully-gang deserve to go to Hawaii. Indeed, I am surprised that any of them have found a job.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:41 AM
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I have read through all the posts and now watched the episode 3 times. IMO Cliff went to far by breaking the rules but I am also reading through the posts and now we are comparing this to rape? Now unless Cliff dropped his pants,and went into Brokeback Mountain mode, I would not have immediately thought all that... and I am a woman. He was not out to intentionally hurt him, he wasn't planning to beat up him. What he did was not right but comparing to a gang rape? Sorry I don't see where they compare. I think Frank was more of violent threat than Cliff.
Now before everyone jumps on my back - I am not condoning what any of them- and IMO ALL of them were involved, did but I am questioning the severity of how some people looked at it.
Yes it was extremely stupid and went to far but I look at all of them like they are living in a frat house.. ..A very drunken frat house. I remember in college, rushing fraternities and sororities, the hazing and other stuff that happened,... vaseline in the hair? Nair in the shampoo? Putting underwear in the freezer on top of fish so your undies totally smell fishy? Shaving the eyebrows? Hand in cold water to make you pee in bed? All stupid pranks, all not at all very nice. But filing assault charges for any of that? Suing all parties involved? Wow.
From some of the posts I have read, some may think frying in the electric chair may not be enough of a fitting punishment for Cliff and Bravo.
Exactly. These "Marcel should file assault charges" posts are pretty over the top. Same with the lawsuits. Yes lets jam up the legal system with more petty lawsuits.
Thinking like this pretty much the the same misguided logic that argues that tag and dodgeball should be banned from schools and that childrens sports shouldn't have winners or losers.
If it was up to these people in 20 years we will all have to walk around incased in sanitized bubble wrap watching episodes of the hit game show Tie Tie or Draw, where everybody wins!!!
I agree with both of these post.
Yes, Cliff went too far. He proved, for the second season in a row, why Top Chef should not have a booze budget.
I respect Cliff for manning up and taking his punishment. I respect him for apologizing to Marcel and I greatly admire that Marcel took the apology. Much respect for that.
Am I now a Marcel fan and want him to win?
Nope.
brillke
Do you actually believe that any of those involved in the gang attack on Marcel should carry the title of top chef?
Is being part of a bully-gang your idea of the requirements for top chef?
I agree with Tom C--the rest of them should have been drop-kicked off the show like yesterday's compost, and Marcel should have won by default.
I think allowing the rest of them to continue degrades the Top Chef show and those involved in it. It's like giving an endorsement for bully-gang behavior in a top chef.
Holster
January 18, 2007 - 11:41 AM
Quote:
In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
People have been using religion/God to cover up their [censored] since forever. Nothing new there. Just adds a bit more soil to the brat pack's dinginess. Elia is from one of the wealthiest families in Mexico CIty; she can afford to be a hypocrite. Just as she could afford letting Mia sacrifice herself...even though Mia has more integrity in her pinkie than ELia has ever had and could really use the money. She and Ilan make a great pair.
http://mcrumistudio.com/hawaii4o.jpg
Holster
January 18, 2007 - 11:45 AM
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Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
Thanks for that uplifting insight. Isn't there a Muslim you want to torture somewhere? How many aliases do you have on this board anyway???
Can't wait for your witty response. Don't delay or disappoint!
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:47 AM
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Yeah, and you also think he is hot because he giggles like a girl and makes fun of people. I'm certain that people make fun of you, but you don't get it, because you're dumb.
Isn't it funny, the people who bash these chefs for being mean, and making fun of people, are themselves the most inconsiderate, mean, hateful, loathsome people who make fun of others for expressing an opinion. You have no right to judge others as you yourself have demonstrated that you are beneath all of them as a human being.
Talk about the show, not about other posters. Grow Up.
Hypocrisy isn't pretty in any situation. But none of the posters here, to my knowledge, has held themselves forth as being of Top Chef caliber. That's the big difference.
None of those in the bully-gang, including Elia and her collaboration by remaining silent when she could have intervened, have the maturity and integrity to be top chef of my toilet-bowl, let alone a restaurant galley.
Posters who attack the poster instead of dealing with the poster's opinions use a logical falicy called "ad homineum" attacks.
I've decided that those posters are best ignored because it's a waste of time to try to discuss anything with them in a constructive manner. Don't know if that will work for you, but it's an option.
IronChef
January 18, 2007 - 11:47 AM
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In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
People have been using religion/God to cover up their [censored] since forever. Nothing new there. Just adds a bit more soil to the brat pack's dinginess. Elia is from one of the wealthiest families in Mexico CIty; she can afford to be a hypocrite. Just as she could afford letting Mia sacrifice herself...even though Mia has more integrity in her pinkie than ELia has ever had and could really use the money. She and Ilan make a great pair.
http://mcrumistudio.com/hawaii4o.jpg
I think I just did my first ever legitimate, old-time comedy spit-take! That's positively beautiful, Holster, thank you! And since tea and keys don't generally mix, you owe me a new keyboard!
brillke
January 18, 2007 - 11:49 AM
Hi Foo Foo, RSH,daverocks and katie, nice seeing yall again.
What gets me about this episode is why is Elia being held responsible for Marcels well being? She is not his nanny and from what I remember, she wasnt even in the room. I have no clue if she knew what was going on.
Some wanted charges pressed but what if Marcel chose not to press charges? Isnt it his call?
Also, the producers proved how unimportant the health,mental and physical well being and reputation of the chefs is to them.
There is a heatwave, people did die. Production did not make sure the rooms the chefs stayed in had working A/C and by all accounts, only the common room A/C worked. A/C had to be turned off while they cooked so as not to interfere with the microphones.
Mikey needed an emergency dental procedure. They found some back alley dentist who did a terrible job and Mikey himself wanted to call 911.
Long shoots with no food or bathroom breaks.
Tobacco and booze were well stocked for the chefs.
Hm, A/C isnt important or a decent health professional but Marlboros and Bud Light are?
Nice job Bravo.
brillke
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:51 AM
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Betty disgusted me with all of her picking on a young man young enough to be her child. Immature, nasty bullying all with that passive aggressive cheesy grin. YUK.
Did you ever think that maybe there is a reason everyone hates Marcel? It's prolly not because they fear his foams either. My guess is that he's a major [expletive deleted] and deserves most if not all of what he gets from the others.
This is the simplest explaination, which we know according to Occam's razor, tends to be the correct one.
Your attempt to blame the victim is noted. It is a tactic often used by those who assault others (most frequently in rape cases where the victim will be said to have "deserved it" for the way she dressed), especially bully-gangs like the one on Top Chef.
Nothing that Marcel could have said would have warranted what he has endured--with cool maturity--from the bully-gang.
Tom C is right--by their attack on Marcel they should have been sent home. The no longer deserve to be in a competition for Top Chef. To allow them to continue is an endorsement by Bravo/TC production staff of their behavior, implying that it's okay for a Top Chef to get drunk, form a gang, and physically assault a colleague they don't like.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:53 AM
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As for Marcel, he should have been booted out when he tried to make Betty lose when she was cooking (when she had nothing to do with the fryer cooling down.)
Last time I checked, just about the whole world agreed that betty ( that [expletive deleted] ) had to go, and we all rejoiced when her sorry ass got axed. Maybe her nasty attitude reminds you of yourself. Right not, like it or not. Marcel, MC foamy or what other name you feel like calling him is the fan's favorite. Why, because he's not the bully like the others. See what happens when you act the bully, you get caught and sent home crying to momma, or you get your arse kicked like the taliban.
Dont mind me, I'm just trying to stir up some heated discussions
I think that is what is driving the Sam/Ilan supporters to abject distraction...the fact that their favorites' own cruel, immature, violent actions have done the damage.
meimeikitty
January 18, 2007 - 11:53 AM
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If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago.
Real Life, TV Show - It matters not. Their actions would be equally wrong in either situation.
I work in conflict resolution and one thing is constant - there will always be people you encounter in life that you do not get along with (actually its usually because they emulate a quality you do not like in yourself so you act more violently to it - but I won't go into all that). In the end, you have to learn how to deal with those people - either by addressing the issue or changing how you react to it.
You can't change others. You can only change yourself and how you respond to them!
Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
My hubby is a welding contractor AND he dislikes Marcel. He thought everyone's actions last night were petty, stupid and childish. Please don't characterize all construction workers as people who solve their problems with their fists. That kind of stereotype might fly in the movies, but in real life construction workers are mostly business men who handle their problems rationally, not like kids. My hubby didn't build a huge welding business by beating up on the small guy.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:55 AM
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Betty disgusted me with all of her picking on a young man young enough to be her child. Immature, nasty bullying all with that passive aggressive cheesy grin. YUK.
Did you ever think that maybe there is a reason everyone hates Marcel? It's prolly not because they fear his foams either. My guess is that he's a major [expletive deleted] and deserves most if not all of what he gets from the others.
This is the simplest explaination, which we know according to Occam's razor, tends to be the correct one.
He may be annoying and a "major [expletive deleted]" to live/compete with. He doesn't deserve to be dragged out of a dead sleep and assaulted. If he were female getting on everyone's nerves, would "she" deserve to be drug out of bed and held down by the largest man in the room while being laughed at? No, he did not deserve that, plain and simple.
This is how desperate the Sam/Ilan supporters are getting--they are sinking to blaming the victim, one of the most dispicable tactics in existence.
SimpleBear
January 18, 2007 - 11:56 AM
What happens when you cross "Top Chef" season 1 with "The Real World"? I thinks it's a pretty cut and cleared answer.
Cliff made a bad decision. He assaulted a fellow human being, and a sleeping one at that. He broke the rules of the contest AND civilization. He, therefore, needed to be sent home. The fact that his food was pretty bad is neither here or there, nor is the fact that nobody disagreed with his actions. It was pretty disgusting.
Sam runs a restaurant? I hope he manages it with more authority than he has his emotions during the course of this competition. He's also pretty passive - aggresive. No, not a Top Chef.
Ilan and Elia are showing their immaturity. They're being put in positions that I wouldn't envy. They have created some great food but Elia has been all to ready to quit too many times and Ilan has shown a weak resolve when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Top Chefs? No.
Marcel is a royal pain in the butt. He's a good technician but has no real heart or soul evident in his food. Having said that, I felt really bad for him. No one desrves that treatment, whether they be an arrogant schmuck or not. He handled it with grace. I will give him that. Is the food there? I really don't think so. Not a Top Chef.
So, what do we have left? Not much, I'm afraid.
Why have I said so very little about the food? Because their behavior during this contest, as a whole, does not warrant being taken seriously. Will I be tuned in to the finale? Of course I will. I've invested too much time in this show to bow out now. I just don't like what I've gotten in return.
brillke
January 18, 2007 - 11:56 AM
"Do you actually believe that any of those involved in the gang attack on Marcel should carry the title of top chef?
Is being part of a bully-gang your idea of the requirements for top chef?
I agree with Tom C--the rest of them should have been drop-kicked off the show like yesterday's compost, and Marcel should have won by default.
I think allowing the rest of them to continue degrades the Top Chef show and those involved in it. It's like giving an endorsement for bully-gang behavior in a top chef."
What I saw was a HUMAN BEING make an incredibly stupid mistake while drunk off his ass. I saw that same human take his punishment like a man and apologize for his very stupid mistake. I saw Marcel accept that apology. If Marcel is willing to accept it and move on, who am I to argue with him?
I am truly honored to be surrounded by so many perfect human beings who have never royally [censored] up and had to take their lumps.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 11:57 AM
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Liddy - I see where you are coming from. I only watched the episode onces so my opinions are based on my initial reactions. I recall clearly seeing Cliff and Sam in the video and hearing Ilan. I do not recall hearing Elia or seeing her in the shots. Therefore, I did not include her in my comments. However, if Elia did see what was going on and did not take any action, than she too is just as guilty in the deplorable actions against Marcel as Sam or Ilan would be in my book.
According to Tom C, she was not in the room, but she knew what they were doing and could hear what was going on....and did nothing.
Stella88
January 18, 2007 - 11:58 AM
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Well darlin' there is only one thing to say.....LET'S GO MARCEL....lol
I have lost respect for them to..I am so trying to keep an open mind..But imagine waking up to that????
Had to be scary.....He didn't know what they were going to do to him.
How he forgve them all so readily is a true tetament to his character......I don't think many of the others would have.
Sam is Sicilain...I am too..We don't forgive easily once betrayed..I know sterotype but tis true.
He had to sleep in the bathroom all night for fear of his safety...He didn't know what was coming next.
He didn't even know it was about hair at that point.
They all made me sick.It wasn't as horible as some are making it out to be but still.Exactly what Tom said..Is this how you behave in youer kitchen????
They should have waited to close that fan fave thing till today...no fair..marcel would have won hands down
I hope he wins it all but I don't think he will.
What these idjuts don't realize is...They have just made the enemy a STAR!!!!!
For me, the season ended last night.
Elia was my choice to win, but, the past few episodes have shown her leadership flaws, and frankly, she's a bit coo-coo.
A borderline personality type really isn't leadership potential. I'm sure she is talented, and I wish her well, but, I lost all remaining respect for her last night. Marcel was her friend, and she is two-faced, flakey, and nothing about her is exceptional, except she's exceptionally weird.
Sam deserves to be TOP CHEF this season, but, I absolutely can't stand him, after his behavior all season, not only with Marcel, but, he's thrown everyone under the bus all season.
His arrogant smirking face makes me want to throw a shoe at the television. I CANNOT STAND HIM. I'd NEVER eat anything
he cooked.
Marcel deserves to win on one level, but, not for his cooking. He handled himself well under pressure, forced to live with a bunch of real jerks.
I don't like any of the remaining chefs. I don't want any of them to win. The show should pack up and forget it.
Last night's show was promo'd as being so huge, and it was so very, very disappointing. I am shocked that the show sucked so bad, after a roller-coaster season.
One by one, the decent people on the show left. We're left forced to root for four extremely unlikeable and almost deplorable human beings. What were the show's producers and judges thinking? It sucks. ARE THEY BLIND, DEAF and DUMB?
This will be my last season of Top Chef. Top Chef left millions of us with indigestion for the unappetizing four remaining twerps. What in the world were they thinking? It's a joke. The worse. It is a habit I'm glad to get rid of. No more Wednesday nights on Bravo for me. Top JOKE. The joke was on the viewers. What a horrible epiphany to see who they picked to be the best of the best. I don't think any of them are Top Chefs, so what's the point of the show? ABSURD ending.
brillke
January 18, 2007 - 11:58 AM
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Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
Thanks for that uplifting insight. Isn't there a Muslim you want to torture somewhere? How many aliases do you have on this board anyway???
Can't wait for your witty response. Don't delay or disappoint!
Dont you feel your Muslim comment was a bit much?
brillke
SoonersRock
January 18, 2007 - 11:59 AM
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My hubby is a welding contractor AND he dislikes Marcel. He thought everyone's actions last night were petty, stupid and childish. Please don't characterize all construction workers as people who solve their problems with their fists. That kind of stereotype might fly in the movies, but in real life construction workers are mostly business men who handle their problems rationally, not like kids. My hubby didn't build a huge welding business by beating up on the small guy.
Oh for crying out loud... my apologies to the construction workers of America! Change it to a sports team, or the Army, or an office full of salesmen, or a blue collar kitchen.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:00 PM
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Who was holding the camera in that scene with Marcel/Cliff?
According to Tom C's blog, "the others."
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...When I got to the set, the producers told me that the previous evening Cliff, Elia, Ilan and Sam had been drinking. While Marcel slept peacefully in the next room, they made a decision to shave their own heads (only Ilan and Elia actually went through with it) and then to shave Marcel's, whether he liked it or not. Cliff jumped him, abruptly waking him up, and hauled him into a half-nelson, while the others laughingly captured the incident on a crew member's camcorder and debated shaving his head. Marcel was bruised and understandably freaked out, and the video footage had found its way back to the Producers...
WhataJoke
January 18, 2007 - 12:00 PM
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Everyone is getting on the men about this episode of abuse, but what about Elia? All through this competition, she has failed to step up. Sure, she is nice to everyone, but does she ever do the right thing? She should have never let Mia leave the show on her account. Instead, she just stood there rubbing the bridge of her nose like she always does when there is a any sort of confrontation. Did she ever tell the others to lay off Marcel? Which is worse....a sin of commission or omission?
I can't remember the name of the episode, but it was the one at the fire station--Elia told Marcel that she would always stand up for him. But, last night when Cliff was holding him down and llan called for her, she said "I can't right now!" She may not have wanted to be a part of shaving his head, but she also didn't want to be a part of standing up for him either.
Tom C, in his blog, also points out that she knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.
In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
Nice use a dumb stunt on a reality tv show to trash an entire religion. Simply fabulous.
SoonersRock
January 18, 2007 - 12:02 PM
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This is how desperate the Sam/Ilan supporters are getting--they are sinking to blaming the victim, one of the most dispicable tactics in existence.
LOL
WhataJoke
January 18, 2007 - 12:03 PM
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In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
People have been using religion/God to cover up their [censored] since forever. Nothing new there. Just adds a bit more soil to the brat pack's dinginess. Elia is from one of the wealthiest families in Mexico CIty; she can afford to be a hypocrite. Just as she could afford letting Mia sacrifice herself...even though Mia has more integrity in her pinkie than ELia has ever had and could really use the money. She and Ilan make a great pair.
http://mcrumistudio.com/hawaii4o.jpg
You two make quite a pair.
Considering Mia's actions during Sugargate I find it highly comical that you refer to her integrity. But hey don't let the facts get in the way of Slandering the "Rich" girl.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:04 PM
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I have read through all the posts and now watched the episode 3 times. IMO Cliff went to far by breaking the rules but I am also reading through the posts and now we are comparing this to rape? Now unless Cliff dropped his pants,and went into Brokeback Mountain mode, I would not have immediately thought all that... and I am a woman. He was not out to intentionally hurt him, he wasn't planning to beat up him. What he did was not right but comparing to a gang rape? Sorry I don't see where they compare. I think Frank was more of violent threat than Cliff.
Now before everyone jumps on my back - I am not condoning what any of them- and IMO ALL of them were involved, did but I am questioning the severity of how some people looked at it.
Yes it was extremely stupid and went to far but I look at all of them like they are living in a frat house.. ..A very drunken frat house. I remember in college, rushing fraternities and sororities, the hazing and other stuff that happened,... vaseline in the hair? Nair in the shampoo? Putting underwear in the freezer on top of fish so your undies totally smell fishy? Shaving the eyebrows? Hand in cold water to make you pee in bed? All stupid pranks, all not at all very nice. But filing assault charges for any of that? Suing all parties involved? Wow.
From some of the posts I have read, some may think frying in the electric chair may not be enough of a fitting punishment for Cliff and Bravo.
Exactly. These "Marcel should file assault charges" posts are pretty over the top. Same with the lawsuits. Yes lets jam up the legal system with more petty lawsuits.
Thinking like this pretty much the the same misguided logic that argues that tag and dodgeball should be banned from schools and that childrens sports shouldn't have winners or losers.
If it was up to these people in 20 years we will all have to walk around incased in sanitized bubble wrap watching episodes of the hit game show Tie Tie or Draw, where everybody wins!!!
I agree with both of these post.
Yes, Cliff went too far. He proved, for the second season in a row, why Top Chef should not have a booze budget.
I respect Cliff for manning up and taking his punishment. I respect him for apologizing to Marcel and I greatly admire that Marcel took the apology. Much respect for that.
Am I now a Marcel fan and want him to win?
Nope.
brillke
Well said and good point about the booze.. unfortunately in the food service industry booze and food go hand in hand( please note the requirement for the wine pairings in the compitition). Cliff screwed up ,he knew he screwed up and I would bet he probably knew he was gone. He handled it well and Marcell was gracious in his goodbye. I do feel that Marcell has displayed a lot maturity in this episode. Unlike the firehall show, this time when his salmon got dumped he just delt with it instead of having a hissy fit. Maybe he is growing up a bit through these weeks of episodes but I do not find him as irritateing now as I used too. Please note.. his salmon dish did not have any foam on it so he can be taught.
As for requests for police ,lawyers , floggings etc. ... come on ...it is a TV show . To quote Rodney King... "can't we all just get along?"
I think that not having hooch in the budget would take out one of the factors of being a Top Chef--being able to work around hooch and, consume it or not, have it not turn the chef into a violent thug.
I find it ironic that you used the Rodney King incident, since he also was ganged up upon, and since there was a big lawsuit over it.
I think Marcel is perfectly justified in bringing suit against the others for the attack. Fortunately for the bully-gang and the TC producers, Marcel seems to be above that kind of approach.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:06 PM
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If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago.
Again, blaming the victim is a despicable tactic.
Are you saying that in your average restaurant kitchen, which is male-dominated, that they would conspire to physically attack with the intentions to deface someone in the kitchen they didn't like because of the things he said?
You're really saying that? Really?
WhataJoke
January 18, 2007 - 12:07 PM
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Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
Thanks for that uplifting insight. Isn't there a Muslim you want to torture somewhere? How many aliases do you have on this board anyway???
Can't wait for your witty response. Don't delay or disappoint!
Dont you feel your Muslim comment was a bit much?
brillke
Between Holster and Amazon they pretty much have the offending religious groups down pat.
KariAna
January 18, 2007 - 12:07 PM
You didn't carry the Richard Hatch story to it's end.
Yes, Richard Hatch made a deal with Survivor. They not
only made sure he won, they had promised they'd pay the
taxes for him. End result......Richard Hatch is in prison
for tax evasion because Survivor didn't pay the taxes.
Maybe Marcel wishes to win on his ability to cook and
not make a deal because of the rude and immature
behavior of Cliff, Sam, Elan and even Elia.
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If I was Marcel, I would have pulled a "Richard Hatch" faster than the speed of light. (it's purported that on the 1st season of Survivor, Richard Hatch caught the producers of the show sneaking food to the contestants they wanted to win. Instead of turning them in for fraud, Hatch struck a deal with them, and Hatch was declared the winner). Marcel, should have told the show to declare him the winner of the competion then and there, and if they didn't, he should have immediately picked up the phone and dialed 911, filed an assault charge against Cliff, and conspiracy and complicity to commit assault charges, against the other three idiots. Plus file a lawsuit against the producers of the show and the BRAVO network for manufacturing and instigating as well as contributing to an unsafe work and living environment.
Believe me, when cops start showing up and arresting people, Everyone's outlook changes.
meimeikitty
January 18, 2007 - 12:07 PM
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My hubby is a welding contractor AND he dislikes Marcel. He thought everyone's actions last night were petty, stupid and childish. Please don't characterize all construction workers as people who solve their problems with their fists. That kind of stereotype might fly in the movies, but in real life construction workers are mostly business men who handle their problems rationally, not like kids. My hubby didn't build a huge welding business by beating up on the small guy.
Oh for crying out loud... my apologies to the construction workers of America! Change it to a sports team, or the Army, or an office full of salesmen, or a blue collar kitchen.
I believe you completely missed the point. It seems that you were trying to say that Marcel would get much worse treatment in another situation. I disproved that point. I also do not believe that sports teams, the army, or blue collar kitchens treat their fellow workers with such contempt. That whole assertion is rather elitist. Cliff acted like an a**. He apologized. Marcel accepted. Period.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:08 PM
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This is the simplest explaination, which we know according to Occam's razor, tends to be the correct one.
So whether its right or wrong is irrelvant. I'd love to see the look on you mug if this happened to you. I would probably lmao justing at the poetic justice being served to someone so deserving. Here's what I think of your Occam's razor. "For example, atheists often apply Occam's razor in arguing against the existence of God on the grounds that God is an unnecessary hypothesis. . "
Or if it happened to Sam...what do you think the comments would have been on the board from the Sam supporters?
Or, god forbid, it happened to Cliff. Do you think the producers would have overruled Tom C (who wanted to send them all home and make Marcel the winner by default), and allowed them to continue on in the show?
Holster
January 18, 2007 - 12:10 PM
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Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
Thanks for that uplifting insight. Isn't there a Muslim you want to torture somewhere? How many aliases do you have on this board anyway???
Can't wait for your witty response. Don't delay or disappoint!
Dont you feel your Muslim comment was a bit much?
brillke
Not in the least.
SoonersRock
January 18, 2007 - 12:10 PM
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Again, blaming the victim is a despicable tactic.
Are you saying that in your average restaurant kitchen, which is male-dominated, that they would conspire to physically attack with the intentions to deface someone in the kitchen they didn't like because of the things he said?
You're really saying that? Really?
No, someone would just pick a fight with him and then beat the hell out of him in the parking lot after work. I worked in bars and restaraunts for twenty years and I saw it happen several times.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:11 PM
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As for Marcel, he should have been booted out when he tried to make Betty lose when she was cooking (when she had nothing to do with the fryer cooling down.)
Last time I checked, just about the whole world agreed that betty ( that [expletive deleted] ) had to go, and we all rejoiced when her sorry ass got axed. Maybe her nasty attitude reminds you of yourself.
So much for posting an opinion here without being subjected to personal judgments.
And whether Betty deserved to go or not, Marcel's behavior in that instance was childish and reprehensible. Just because he's been turned into a victim now by Cliff does make his earlier behavior acceptable.
The issue I have with the original post is that they singled out one instance with Marcel that was far, far, FAR less than anything he has suffered from the others, or any of the BS the others have pulled.
swiss74
January 18, 2007 - 12:14 PM
Just jumping in to say...
First: let me say, the trailers made this whole mess seem a lot worse than it was going to be. The speculation made on the boards was for naught. Not all shaved their heads and Marcel was not bald in the last episode.
Second: I totally do not approve of what happened. If you all remember I was one that felt Frank’s threats towards Marcel were not appropriate and he should have been spoken to about making those threats.
Third: The whole group was involved in what happened, Elia included. When Cliff called for her to come into the room from what I assume she was still in the bathroom, she responded she could not for some reason only she knows.
Fourth: Since these people have shown they cannot handle liquor, then as has been suggested, a liquor budget should not be available from Bravo/Top Chef in the future. If the contestants want to drink let them deposit money with Top Chef and let them draw on that money. Let Bravo/Top Chef set up accounts for them at the local liquor store. If they choose not to deposit the money then they should not drink. I have a feeling if they had to pay for all the liquor they consumed not much drinking would be going on. When Michael bought the liquor during that one challenge out of his food budget, the producers should have taken it away from him as a violation of the rules applying to the FOOD Budget. (I am sure there are rules about the food budget, since there seems to be rules for everything else.)
Fifth: Marcel handled the situation with dignity and should be commended for that. That does not negate his being in each of the contestants ears, moaning and telling them how to do things in the kitchen or how wonderful his education was. His snide remarks probably precipatated ted this whole mess. As I said I do not under any circumstances condone the actions of the group at all.
Sixth: I personally feel none of the contestants will find it easy to find a job after this, Marcel included. Marcel for his constant remarks (behavior) and the rest for their behavior regarding the incident on Top Chef.
Seventh: Since this has probably destroyed all of their careers, I wonder if Bravo/Top Chef should have aired the scuffle. Not that they did not have every right to but maybe they should have considered the outcome to the chefs. Do not misunderstand me, they had every right to air the segment, my question is should they have aired it. It has destroyed the entire group, the remaining group no exceptions. I think we have heard that Michael did not get his job back, was that because of the show? He was not around for the “attempted shearing,” but he also did not like Marcel, which was apparent.
What this all has done to their careers is sad. Not that it can be justified, their behavior was deplorable. It makes possible contestants in the future question whether they really want to be on the show. No one can predict how the other contestants will handle things, and guilt by association is a strong force. I think by airing the segment by Bravo/Top Chef they may have just sealed the fate of the show. Maybe they will come out of this untouched but I doubt it. Maybe it will show Bravo/Top Chef they need to provide better accommodations for the contestants. Who knows what will happen, but I think there is a lesson in there for everyone.
Do I think Marcel should be the next top chef, no not at all. He possibly could be a top chef in the future but right now he is too immature on a whole to handle that kind of responsibility. None of the chefs, because of this last episode, are really top chef material. I am a Sam follower but he could have tried to stop the scuffle and he chose to sit back on the sidelines. Out of the entire group Sam is the only one that has shown any type of leadership when team challenges have occurred so for that I will have to say, he probably is the best candidate. This is really a sad cast of characters, and it is even sadder what happened to the group dynamic. Just my take on the situation and probably not worth the time I spent writing this.
Amazon
January 18, 2007 - 12:14 PM
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If this were not a TV Show and just any real life, male dominated setting they would have beat the hell out of FoamBoy a long time ago.
Real Life, TV Show - It matters not. Their actions would be equally wrong in either situation.
I work in conflict resolution and one thing is constant - there will always be people you encounter in life that you do not get along with (actually its usually because they emulate a quality you do not like in yourself so you act more violently to it - but I won't go into all that). In the end, you have to learn how to deal with those people - either by addressing the issue or changing how you react to it.
You can't change others. You can only change yourself and how you respond to them!
Right or wrong it's just the way things are. Plop Marcel down on a construction crew and let him run around pissing everyone off for a couple of days and see what happens to him. They tend to have their own means of "conflict resolution" in such settings.
The situation is not a construction crew. The situation is a simulation of a restaurant kitchen where people WHO ARE HOLDING THEMSELVES FORTH AS BEING TOP CHEFS are competing and interacting.
Would you expect guys on a construction site to be able to do the culinary challenges that the TC contestants have done? Would you expect them to have any of the other qualities that are necessary for a top chef?
Your example is flawed. Try again.
Holster
January 18, 2007 - 12:16 PM
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My hubby is a welding contractor AND he dislikes Marcel. He thought everyone's actions last night were petty, stupid and childish. Please don't characterize all construction workers as people who solve their problems with their fists. That kind of stereotype might fly in the movies, but in real life construction workers are mostly business men who handle their problems rationally, not like kids. My hubby didn't build a huge welding business by beating up on the small guy.
Oh for crying out loud... my apologies to the construction workers of America! Change it to a sports team, or the Army, or an office full of salesmen, or a blue collar kitchen.
I believe you completely missed the point. It seems that you were trying to say that Marcel would get much worse treatment in another situation. I disproved that point. I also do not believe that sports teams, the army, or blue collar kitchens treat their fellow workers with such contempt. That whole assertion is rather elitist. Cliff acted like an a**. He apologized. Marcel accepted. Period.
I don't think they teach ethics in his high school, so you'll have to forgive him.
WhataJoke
January 18, 2007 - 12:18 PM
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In one of her interviews she repeatedly emphasizes that she is a Christian and studies the Bible every day. I find it offensive that, after her actions on TC, she wraps herself in the cloak of the Christian God because one thing is clear: if she is a walking billboard for Christianity, then the world would be better off without it.
People have been using religion/God to cover up their [censored] since forever. Nothing new there. Just adds a bit more soil to the brat pack's dinginess. Elia is from one of the wealthiest families in Mexico CIty; she can afford to be a hypocrite. Just as she could afford letting Mia sacrifice herself...even though Mia has more integrity in her pinkie than ELia has ever had and could really use the money. She and Ilan make a great pair.
http://mcrumistudio.com/hawaii4o.jpg
You two make quite a pair.
Considering Mia's actions during Sugargate I find it highly comical that you refer to her integrity. But hey don't let the facts get in the way of Slandering the "Rich" girl.
Listen to Mia's version of Sugargate on Chow..It's totally diff than what we saw she says.
Again...who do we believe??
Exactly. My point was to illustrate the ridiculousness of character assassination that is going on here. So far Cliff is a potential rapist, wife beater, mass murderer? Am I missing something. Elia's religious beliefs hae been mocked. Ilan's sexuality has been questioned and joked about even though the people doing the joking are at the same time taking him to task for doing the same thing to Marcel.
Lord Almighty and this is only Top Chef. I would give money to watch some of you Holier than Thou types sit through a season of MTV's The Real World. I'd have to wear a Poncho to keep all the grey matter off me as your heads simultaniously exploded.
sizzler
January 18, 2007 - 12:18 PM
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Sizzler, Fred Goldman did not go "around the law". It is part of that law that if you lose in criminal court you can absolutely sue in civil court (where that butcher Simpson was found responsible for the two murders.)
Why did Padma call Elia an idiot? For the attack on Marcel or for shaving her head? I think Elia looks great with a shaved head (I did that once myself -- sure made showering faster!)
As for Marcel, he should have been booted out when he tried to make Betty lose when she was cooking (when she had nothing to do with the fryer cooling down.)
While I respect that Fred Goldman did not go "around the law" to sue OJ, and I DO NOT in any way dismiss his pain of losing his son in such a horrible way, it seems pretty strange that a person can be cleared of a crime and yet be sued for being responcible and LOSE! That is no different than saying "I know you didn't do it, but you are going to pay anyway."
In this case, even though there are clauses in their contracts about suing Bravo, etc. there are ways to still sue for situations such as this that will make the contract unenforcable. JMHO
AND, I think Padma was talking about how stupid it was for Elia to shave her head.
clynnranson
January 18, 2007 - 12:18 PM
I don't know if anybody brought this up already or not, but are they doing a reuinion special?
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